marahfreedom

Posts Tagged ‘Better Judgments’

12 Articles on Women and Minorities : Commediennes Rare, Disruptive Globalist-Feminist Agendas?, Xian Factions Fight Over Fundo Fatwas, Jew Spin or New Spin?, Bro Nat’s Quasi-Prat, Philistine Fem-Troopers, Bonehead or Demogogue Reports on Adult Industry : Debunking Pimps and Madams als Advocacy of Proper Adult Services Zones, Non-LBSM FSWs and Alcoholism, Wealth Distribution Issues in India, USA 3rd Force Politicians, Warning Israeli Citizens and the World – reposted by @AgreeToDisagree – 15th June 2012

In best practices, better judgments, better laws, Catholic, Catholic Church, checks and balances, Christianity, Church, conflict of interest, conscientious objection, Constitution, critical discourse, dress code, freedom of choice, Fundamentalism, gender politics, gentrification, hegelian dialectic, Israel, Jewish State, Law, M.A.D., media traps, misplaced adoration, misrepresentation of facts, mob mentality, neutral spaces, nuclear Iran, nuclear weapons, pimping in law, politics, Prostitution, red light district legalisation, Russia, self policing, sneaky proselytization methods, Socialism, spirit of the law, spirit of the word, sub-culture advocacy, subculture persecution, unprofessional behaviour, Wealth distribution, women, word of the law, wrong priority on June 14, 2012 at 9:19 pm

ARTICLE 1

‘Not many women are prepared to make themselves unattractive just to get a laugh’: The world according to Morgana Robinson – By Louise Gannon – PUBLISHED: 21:00 GMT, 9 June 2012 | UPDATED: 21:00 GMT, 9 June 2012

Luckily, she will do anything for a giggle – which is probably why her biting new TV impressions show, Very Important People, is such a hit
‘You have to be tough in comedy, and that puts a lot of men off you. I definitely scare men. Women are still finding our way in comedy but that makes it incredibly exciting for me,’ said Morgana Robinson

‘You have to be tough in comedy, and that puts a lot of men off you. I definitely scare men. Women are still finding our way in comedy but that makes it incredibly exciting for me,’ said Morgana Robinson
Success is massively important to me.

I had a fairly unconventional upbringing and I’m really driven and incredibly tough on myself. I drive everyone mad during filming because I’m the one checking all the time to see if something is funny. I’m a tough girl who was brought up by a very strong mother and I very definitely have a point to prove.
Women find it difficult to be funny.

There aren’t that many female comedians around because it’s a pretty odd career choice for a woman. The biggest issue is making yourself look unattractive to get a laugh. I don’t have a problem with that – the more vile and grotesque I look, the funnier I think it is. But a lot of women just aren’t up for that, because we’re meant to be beautiful. You have to be tough in comedy, too, and that puts a lot of men off you. I definitely scare men. Women are still finding our way in comedy but that makes it incredibly exciting for me.
Morgana as Adele. ‘I spend hours and hours watching someone before I even start,’ she said

Morgana as Adele. ‘I spend hours and hours watching someone before I even start,’ she said
I got my break in a restaurant.

I worked on reception at a very posh London restaurant called Roka, which was always packed with celebrities and very important people. I was there for eight years earning £37.50 a night for the 5pm-1am shift. I got to know a lot of the regular clients, and one night I gave a DVD to John Noel, who looks after Russell Brand. It was pretty awful, shot in my flat by my mate with me sitting on a sofa pulling faces and wearing different hats. But a few nights later he came in and said: ‘Quit your job. Start throwing rice around.’ That was it. I started out wanting to be an actress but it was the comedy that always had that real pull for me. I like making people laugh.
Scarlett Johansson can be rude but Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie are sweethearts.

Working as the host of a flash restaurant gives you a real insight into how people behave. Scarlett Johansson was pretty offish and unpleasant to me, but whenever Brangelina came in they were always incredibly polite and friendly, and made sure they said thank you for any tiny thing I did for them. I met even more celebrities including Bono and Lily Allen when I was working checking coats at Matthew Freud’s Christmas party. I lost my cool a bit when Ronnie Ancona walked in because I’m such a massive fan, but she was lovely and gave me her number.
Fearne Cotton is a friend so I was very worried about impersonating her.

I did it for the first Very Important People show and after it aired on TV I didn’t hear from her for a few days. I was beside myself thinking I’d offended her, but then she just called and told me she thought it was funny. She’s very cool. I have no idea what Cheryl Cole or Helena Bonham Carter or Adele think of being ‘done’ in my new series. I spend hours and hours watching someone before I even start. I became completely obsessed with Helena Bonham Carter. I absolutely love her because I find her completely hilarious. I’d be mortified if she was offended by my impression.
I wanted to impersonate Kate Moss but I was told she wasn’t relevant any more.

I had some really hilarious sketches but I was banned from doing her because the producers didn’t think people would know who she was. It’s insane. Everyone knows Kate Moss. When I saw Russell Brand I told him I was doing him. He just sort of rolled his eyes and looked a bit puzzled. I don’t think it’s possible to offend Russell.
On Helena Bonham Carter: ‘I absolutely love her because I find her completely hilarious’

On Helena Bonham Carter: ‘I absolutely love her because I find her completely hilarious’
I went from living in poverty to going to one of the poshest boarding schools in Britain.

My parents met in Australia where I was born and then we came back to England and life was tough. I remember lots of arguments about money and then my parents split up. For a few years my mum and I were sleeping on sofas at friends’ houses. Then one day my lovely Aunt Jilly turned up and said she felt I ought to go to Benenden School in Kent. My dad has always been a real rogue. He was adopted and we didn’t know much about his past but it turned out he came from a very wealthy family. I thought the idea of boarding school was amazing. My mum was working for a gardening business at the time. I turned up in her bashed-up van as everyone else was piling out of Mercedes and Daimlers.
I learned to be funny at boarding school.

I wasn’t pretty – I had frog eyes and a giraffe neck – but I was the joker and I knew how to get attention. I didn’t worry about not being the prettiest. I was also fairly tough – probably too tough and ballsy for the quieter girls. Amazing to think that after leaving school I took a degree in sculpture.
I met a sister I never knew existed – and it turned out she was a rock star.

My dad was incredibly handsome as a young man and pretty wild. He just wasn’t cut out to be a conventional father. As I grew up I found out I had four half siblings from his previous relationships and we’ve slowly tracked each other down. When I was 21, I got a call from my dad. I hadn’t spoken to him for a year or so but he told me he’d found out my sister was in London and told me to go and buy The Face because she was on the front cover. And there she was – Brody Dalle, this tough, gorgeous rock star. It was pretty surreal. I went to the Brixton Academy to see her perform. I got completely drunk because I thought that was the only way to handle it. I went backstage and we were both just crying. It was sort of weird and beautiful and then she said: ‘We have the same nose.’ And we just talked. She has two gorgeous kids but she lives in LA and I’ve never been there. I guess it was all a bit like a scene from a film.
I learned to be a horse whisperer.

I spent time down in Cornwall with an amazing woman called Kate Mably and it was probably the most incredible time of my life. You get onto the ground with the horses, you learn to understand them and have this unbelievable communication with them. It was unforgettable.

‘Very Important People’ is on channel4.com/programmes/4OD; ‘The Morgana Show’ is out now on DVD

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

There are very few female versions of ‘Jackass’ or slap stick specialists. And far too many militant feminists who are merely fronting the hegelian dialectic establishment with a control agenda AGAINST men, while being controlled by ELITE MEN. What society gets is subverted menfolk who are easier to control and less likely to challenge the ELITE MALE establishment. Mid tier feminists should be very aware that democracy dies if their men do not challenge the ‘establishment’, controlled by MALE ELITE who control ELITE Feminists who influence feminists to weaken SOCIETY and CIVILISATION. You’re destroying everything and democracy as well by feminist actions you feminist fools! Taking out men is taking out democracy! The sickening and machiavellian reality of gender politics used by the ‘establishment’ to destroy democracy!

ARTICLE 2

IMAGINE at anti-sex assault rally: Women attacked and groped by mob! – Saturday, 09 June 2012 16:17

CAIRO- A mob of hundreds of men have assaulted women holding a march demanding an end to sexual harassment, with the attackers overwhelming the male guardians and groping and molesting several of the female marchers in Cairo’s Tahrir Square.

From the ferocity of Friday’s assault, some of the victims said it appeared to have been an organized attempt to drive women out of demonstrations and trample on the pro-democracy protest movement.

The attack follows smaller scale assaults on women this week in Tahrir, the epicenter of the uprising that forced Hosni Mubarak to step down last year. Thousands have been gathering in the square this week in protests over a variety of issues – mainly over worries that presidential elections this month will secure the continued rule by elements of Mubarak’s regime backed by the ruling military.

Earlier in the week, an Associated Press reporter witnessed around 200 men assault a woman who eventually fainted before men trying to help could reach her.

Friday’s march was called to demand an end to sexual assaults. Around 50 women participated, surrounded by a larger group of male supporters who joined to hands to form a protective ring around them. The protesters carried posters saying, “The people want to cut the hand of the sexual harasser,” and chanted, “The Egyptian girl says it loudly, harassment is barbaric.”

After the marchers entered a crowded corner of the square, a group of men waded into the group of women, heckling them and groping them. The male supporters tried to fend them off, and it turned into a melee involving a mob of hundreds.

The marchers tried to flee while the attackers chased them and male supporters tried to protect them. But the attackers persisted, cornering several women against a metal sidewalk railing, including an Associated Press reporter, shoving their hands down their clothes and trying to grab their bags. The male supporters fought back, swinging belts and fists and throwing water.

Eventually, the women were able to reach refuge in a nearby building with the mob still outside until they finally got out to safety.

“After what I saw and heard today. I am furious at so many things. Why beat a girl and strip her off? Why?” wrote Sally Zohney, one of the organizers of the event on Twitter.

The persistence of the attack raised the belief of many that it was intentional, though who orchestrated it was unclear.

Mariam Abdel-Shahid, a 25 year-old cinema student who took part in the march, said “sexual harassment will only take us backward.”

“This is pressure on the woman to return home,” she said.

Ahmed Mansour, a 22 year-old male medical student who took part in the march, said there are “people here trying to abuse the large number of women protesters who feel safe and secure. Some people think it is targeted to make women hate coming here.”

“I am here to take a position and to object to this obscene act in society,” he said.

Assaults on women Tahrir have been a demoralizing turn for Egypt’s protest movement.

During the 18-day uprising against Mubarak last year, women say they briefly experienced a “new Egypt” taking place in Tahrir, with none of the harassment that is common in Cairo’s streets. Women participated in the anti-Mubarak uprising as leading activists, protesters, medics and even fighters to ward off attacks by security agents or affiliated thugs. They have continued the role during the frequent protests over the past 15 months against the military, which took power after Mubarak’s fall on Feb. 11, 2011.

But women have also been targeted, both by mobs and by military and security forces in crackdowns, a practice commonly used by Mubarak security against protesters. Lara Logan, a U.S. correspondent for CBS television, was sexually assaulted by a frenzied mob in Tahrir on the day Mubarak stepped down, when hundreds of thousands of Egyptians came to the square to celebrate.

In a defining image of the post-Mubarak state violence against women, troops dispersing a December protest in Tahrir were captured on video stripping a woman’s top off down to her blue bra and stomping with their boots on her chest, as other troops pulled her by the arms across the ground.

That incident prompted an unprecedented march by some 10,000 women through central Cairo in December in a show of outrage, demanding Egypt’s ruling military step down.

In contrast, the small size of Friday’s march could reflect the vulnerability and insecurity many feel in the square, which was packed with thousands of mostly young men by nightfall Friday. Twenty rights groups signed on to support the stand and hundreds more vowed to take part, according to the Facebook page where organizers publicized the event, but only around 50 women participated.

Sexual harassment of women, including against those who wear the Islamic headscarf or even cover their face, is common in the streets of Cairo. A 2008 report by the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights says two-thirds of women in Egypt experienced sexual harassment on a daily basis. A string of mass assaults on women in 2006 during the Muslim feast following the holy month of Ramadan prompted police to increase the number of patrols to combat it but legislation providing punishment was never passed.

After Friday’s attack, many were already calling for another, much larger stand in the square against such assaults.

Another participant in Friday’s march, Ahmed Hawary, said a close female friend of his was attacked by a mob of men in Tahrir Square in January. She was rushed off in an ambulance, which was the only way to get her out, he said. After suffering from a nervous breakdown, she left Cairo altogether to work elsewhere in Egypt.

“Women activists are at the core of the revolution,” Hawary said. “They are the courage of this movement. If you break them, you break the spirit of the revolution.”

-dailystar.com.

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

“Women activists are at the core of the revolution,” Hawary said. “They are the courage of this movement. If you break them, you break the spirit of the revolution.”

Tsk! Titch! How presumptuous. The fists and guns of the men who took up arms is the REAL core of the revolution. Women were NOT the courage of this movement, the courage was in EVERY MAN who cared about the country, not the women who did not storm and occupy Tahrir. None needs to break ‘them’ women, and the spirit of the revolution is NOT even from the women to begin with! This is why this who heckling and groping occured, to remind of what was real or not. Did the women think they would be able to face the camel riders? Only the men could. This is more a Western provocation for subversive feminism than anything else, to take control of Egypt via the women. An apology by all ungrateful and presumptuous women who think this way is in order. The real minority of women who could face the camel riders made up less than 3% of the overthrowers of Mubarak. How could any claim women to be the core of the revolution? This is also not the time for sex-assault rallies! Egypt still has Islamists and Junta running for election, do the women know what that means if their men vote wrongly?

Attackers overwhelming the male guardians and groping and molesting several of the female marchers in Cairo’s Tahrir Square though could have saved their own case by not acting in this manner. Perhaps they were making a message about modesty. And indeed there is something inappropriate about the whole event of marching especially when stability is so fragile . . .

ARTICLE 3

Nun’s book on masturbation slammed by Vatican

Pope Benedict XVI addresses cardinals in the Clementine Hall at the Vatican in 2009. The Vatican slammed a “sexual morality” book written by an American Catholic nun, warning believers to stay away from the tome which justifies masturbation, homosexuality and divorce. (AFP Photo/Tony Gentile)

The Vatican slammed a “sexual morality” book written by an American Catholic nun on Monday, warning believers to stay away from the tome which justifies masturbation, homosexuality and divorce.

Margaret Farley’s 2006 book “Just Love – A Framework for Christian Sexual Ethics” “affirms positions that are in direct contradiction with Catholic teaching in the field of sexual morality,” the Vatican said in a statement.

Farley, a member of the Sisters of Mercy and professor emerita at Yale Divinity School, expressed support for a long list of sins in the eyes of the Church.

“Masturbation usually does not raise any moral questions at all. It is surely the case that many women have found great good in self-pleasuring… (which) actually serves relationships rather than hindering them,” she wrote.

On the issue of homosexuality, the prominent theologian said “same-sex relationships and activities can be justified according to the same sexual ethic as heterosexual relationships and activities” and “should be respected.”

She also said not all marriages could last and supported both divorce for people who are irrevocably unhappy together and remarriage with new partners.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), which had been carrying out an investigation into the book, responded with a scathing criticism which tackled each of the issues Farley had raised.

It insisted that “masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action”, homosexual relations are “acts of grave depravity”, and “a marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death.”

“The Congregation warns the faithful that the book is not in conformity with the teaching of the Church. Consequently it cannot be used as a valid expression of Catholic teaching,” it said.

Last week the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR), the main US association of Catholic nuns, defended itself against CDF accusations of “corporate dissent” over the Church’s teachings, particularly concerning homosexuality.

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

same-sex relationships and activities can be justified according to the same sexual ethic as heterosexual relationships and activities” and “should NOT be respected.” – only in the Catholic denomination.

“masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action”, homosexual relations are “acts of grave depravity”, and “a marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death.” –  only in the Catholic denomination.

This nun should join the Protestent denomination. Catholicism does not allow all of the above so please respect and don’t bother trying to change the Ctholics. The Vatican should just speak to the nearest highest ranking Protestant personality and ask the nun to declare herself no longer Catholic but protestant instead. No need to slam, just a curt letter to the wayward (by Catholic Church standards) and declaration of excommunication, and at most another to the Protestant faction to take the nun in (and also excommunication of Yale? for future Catholics?) . . . will do. Thats what they did in the past – excommunicate. The Spanish of course would torture the nun (maybe to death) with an Inquisitor, but those days are gone or at very worst apply total excommunication from all Church factions. The Catholic Church will be fewer in following and appear more fundo in these modern times, but while rules are rules, they can only be applied FOR THE CONSENTING members at least – with all false Catholics who do not believe,  no matter how high in the hierarchy, no longer valid as members. Just don’t subvert or manipulate, declare beliefs and GTFO of the denomination!

ARTICLE 4

Hasidic Jew fired from NYPD over beard length – Posted: June 10, 2012 – 12:19am  – Associated Press

NEW YORK — An Orthodox Jew who was weeks away from becoming a New York City police officer said he has been kicked out of the police academy for refusing to trim his beard.

Former recruit Fishel Litzman of Monsey was fired Friday after multiple confrontations with the department over the length of his whiskers, he told the Daily News (http://nydn.us/LDIivf).

Litzman is Hasidic and believes that cutting his beard is forbidden by God.

NYPD rules usually require officers to be clean-shaven. The department makes exceptions for beards kept for religious purposes, but even then only allows 1 millimeter worth of growth.

“I don’t understand what the problem would be,” Litzman said.

NYPD spokesman Paul Browne said the department’s rules are reasonable and Litzman was aware of them when he signed up.

Litzman was first cited in January for his unkempt beard. He was a month away from receiving his shield when he was fired.

“I always wanted to be a police officer,” said Litzman, a 38-year-old father of five who speaks Hebrew and Yiddish and was once a paramedic.

His attorney, Nathan Lewin, said the police department knew when Litzman applied that he would not trim his beard.

And now, Lewin said, it’s a case of religious discrimination.

“We’re going to be deliberating and considering what the steps are that we’re going to take,” Lewin told The Associated Press on Saturday night.

The department hired its first Hasidic officer in 2006 and the force now has at least two dozen Orthodox Jewish officers.

Like observant Muslim and Sikh officers, Hasidic officers are allowed to keep their beards for religious reasons but must keep them neat and trimmed.

Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer issued a statement Saturday saying he was “deeply troubled” by the firing.

“While the NYPD can exercise control over the personal appearance of its force in order to ensure that all officers (are capable of performing their duties) havee a uniform appearance, they are also required to make a reasonable accommodation for religious beliefs,” Stringer said.

He urged the police commissioner to reconsider the case.

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

Token show of WH control over (at least NY state) Fed enforceable issues, or real autonomy from any Lobby and instead being America for Ammerica instead of ‘USA is Israel’s’ to order around? Jews incidentally were the remnants of Egypt’s Priesthood, and formed Judea under David in 1026 BC. With ‘Amon-Ra’ rebranded as the ‘YHVH form God’ which later Aramea (Xianity) and then Bedouins (Islam) copied and to this day fight over ‘franchise rights’ in several splinter groups each.

ARTICLE 5

Jewry’s Plan To Blackball Russia by Brother Nathanael Kapner, Copyright 2012

TWO ‘MEDIA’ JEWS who enjoy lavish exposure by the Jewish-controlled Press are gritting their teeth hoping to take a bite out of Russia’s President, Vladimir Putin.

In a feature OpEd of the Jew-dominated Financial Times, “Time To Blackball Russia’s Autocratic State,” (& Here), Ian Bremmer and Nouriel Roubini—both Jews—just can’t seem to satisfy the anti-Christ rats in their bellies in their malice toward Christian Russia.

Bremmer (founder of the Eurasia Group as a means of bringing Jewish hegemony over Eurasia) and Roubini (touted as an innovative economist) are calling for Russia to be “blackballed” and justify their wishful Jewish fantasy with a pack of Jewish lies:

“Corruption is endemic in Russia. Graft is a particular problem. Capital flight has reportedly accelerated since Putin’s re-election in March.

Russia’s population is falling – because healthcare is poor, socially driven diseases such as alcoholism is rampant, and well-educated Russians are leaving in search of better opportunities elsewhere.” View Entire Story Here & Here.

Indeed, a froth-full of lies spew forth from Bremmer’s and Roubini’s Jewish lips.

Contrary to their assertions, there is NO demographic crisis in Russia. The population of Russia has increased by one million since early 2011. In the first quarter of 2012, Forbes Magazine responsibly reports, Russia’s population grew by 31,000.

Yes, there was a crisis in the 90’s when the drunkard Yeltsin was in the hands of the Jewish oligarchs. But, this crisis has been gradually arrested.

BOTH PUTIN AND MEDVEDEV, (after 80 years of Jewish Bolshevik domination), are addressing corruption and graft issues.

Rumours of capital flight occurring since Putin’s re-election are exactly that, “rumours.” The rouble under Putin is actually being promoted by investment experts as the least risky investment.

And as regards “social diseases” such as alcoholism, Putin has revived the Orthodox Church; closed down all the casinos in Russia; taken over the Jew-owned TV stations and instituted religious programming; introduced Orthodoxy 101 into Russia’s public schools; forbidden “gay parades” — all of which are part of Putin’s efforts to stave off vice and immorality.

Moreover, for Bremmer and Roubini to heap praises upon communist China (a hundred times more repressive than Russia) while hell-bent on blackballing Russia for being an “authoritarian” state, one wonders if these Jewish ‘experts’ are simply blinded by their fear of Putin. For there is no man Jewry fears more than Vladimir Putin.

RUSSIA FOILS JEWRY’S AGENDA FOR SYRIA

BREMMER AND ROUBINI launched their smears against Putin by denouncing Russia’s opposition to a “humanitarian” intervention (Read: Jewish decimation of a sovereign nation) into Syria.

But Russia under Putin still has the last word with respect to Syria recommending to UN envoy, Kofi Annan, “an unbiased probe” of the murders in Houla.

Both Russia’s foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, and The Associated Press, stated that the 108 murdered in Houla were killed at close range—execution style—indicating the work of armed terrorists rather than the Syrian army.

But do you think this matters to Jewish Senator, Joseph Lieberman, Romney’s favorite pick for State Department head? No.

THIS BLOODTHIRSTY Jewish warmonger Lieberman who proposes “arming” the Syrian rebels is now calling for a US military intervention to dismantle Syria into competing militias and warlords to pave the way for a Greater Israel.

But Bremmer, Roubini, and their Synagogue buddy, Lieberman, can spout, demand and propose all they want.

For with Russia’s arms shipment and anti-terror troops newly arrived in Syria’s Port of Tartus and with Putin’s inauguration of the Nord Stream Pipeline—heating the homes and fueling the industries of an energy-starved Europe—Jewish fantasies to “blackball” Russia are no more than paper dreams.

And since it is moral integrity that these Jews are scorning, not only are they on the WRONG side of history but they’re on the RIGHT side of Hell.

The Brother Nathanael Foundation, PO Box 1242, Frisco CO 80443
E-mail: brothernathanaelfoundation@yahoo.com

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

Don’t joke Bro Nat. USA semi-worries about China, and China is semi-worried about Russia. All 3 mentioned nations are 100s of times larger than Israel and have militarizable citizens 10s to 1000s of times more than Israel or several times USA. Israel blackballs nothing. Russia and China which at least have sort of a working relationship and could together demand that USA blackballs Israel (which could be overrun by just Iran alone) instead, and USA would do that in a moment because USA is not a religious, much less Judaist state nor does USA really identify with the Middle Eastern culture. Israel should keep promises on 1960s treaties and punish wayward Jewish citizens who have overstepped treaties. Russia and China are somewhat chaotic and sparsely peopled overall even at such population levels, but given a protracted period of peace (say 2-3 decades at most), the 2 countries (even as of now and even if WW3 with nukes was declared) are already the winners in the earth conquest game.

As of 26th of June, the illegal settlements are being addressed :

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/27/world/middleeast/jewish-settlers-begin-evacuation-of-ulpana.html?pagewanted=all

ARTICLE 6

Military mom ‘proud’ of breast-feeding in uniform, despite criticism – Brynja Sigurdardottir

Military mamas breast-feed with pride. A photo shoot at an Air Force base, intended to raise awareness about breast-feeding, has stirred up controversy. – by Pamela Sitt

Is breast-feeding while in uniform conduct unbecoming to a military mom?

The debate over nursing in public got a new layer recently, when photos taken on an Air Force base began to circulate online. In the series of tasteful professional photos showing beaming moms as they nurse their kids, one jumps out: the photo of two servicewomen with their uniform shirts unbuttoned and hiked up to breast-feed.

“A lot of people are saying it’s a disgrace to the uniform. They’re comparing it to urinating and defecating [while in uniform],” says Crystal Scott, a military spouse who started Mom2Mom in January as a breast-feeding support group for military moms and “anyone related to the base” at Fairchild AFB outside Spokane, Wash. “It’s extremely upsetting. Defecating in public is illegal. Breast-feeding is not.”
Live Poll

Should military moms breast-feed in uniform, in public?

It was Scott’s idea to ask photographer Brynja Sigurdardottir to take photos of real-life breast-feeding moms to create posters for National Breastfeeding Awareness Month in August. One of the moms photographed in uniform, Terran Echegoyen-McCabe, breast-feeds her 10-month-old twin girls on her lunch breaks during drill weekends as a member of the Air National Guard.

“I have breast-fed in our lobby, in my car, in the park … and I pump, usually in the locker room,” she says. “I’m proud to be wearing a uniform while breast-feeding. I’m proud of the photo and I hope it encourages other women to know they can breast-feed whether they’re active duty, guard or civilian.”

She said she’s surprised by the reaction to the photos, which also feature her friend Christina Luna, because it never occurred to her that breast-feeding in uniform would cause such a stir.

“There isn’t a policy saying we can or cannot breast-feed in uniform,”  Echegoyen-McCabe says. “I think it’s something that every military mom who is breast-feeding has done. … I think we do need to be able to breast-feed in uniform and be protected.”

The Air Force has no policy specifically addressing breast-feeding in uniform, according to Air Force spokesperson Captain Rose Richeson, who added, “Airmen should be mindful of their dress and appearance and present a professional image at all times while in uniform.”

Brynja Sigurdardottir

Terran Echegoyen-McCabe, left, and Christina Luna breast-feed their children. Terran says she’s proud of the photo, though she didn’t expect it to get such a reaction.

Robyn Roche-Paull has been advocating for such a policy since she left the U.S. Navy 15 years ago. Her challenges in breast-feeding her son while on active duty – she recalls her “flaming red face” upon being reprimanded for nursing in a medical waiting room – prompted her to write a book called “Breastfeeding in Combat Boots” as a resource for military moms. She is now an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant who remains close to the military through her active-duty husband and her blog for military moms.

“If you follow the comments on my blog, a lot of the comments are that the breast-feeding mothers are the ones who need to be covered up. Nobody sees anything wrong with bottle feeding mothers or fathers,” she says. “Asking mothers to feed a baby by bottle when they are together, simply because they are in uniform, can both affect the mom’s milk supply and her willingness to keep breast-feeding or stay in the military. It’s simply one more barrier they have to face.”

The criticism of the photo goes beyond the usual nursing-in-public debate, though. One commenter on Roche-Paull’s website who identified herself as a retired captain in the Marine Corps said she advocated for breast-feeding moms in the military and now, as a civilian, she nurses freely on base. However, she writes:

“I would never nurse in uniform. I took my child to the bathroom or a private office when her nanny brought her to me …. Not because I was ashamed of nursing, nor of being a mother. All the guys knew I pumped. The military is not a civilian job. We go to combat and we make life or death decisions, and not just for ourselves but for those we lead. The same reason I would never nurse in uniform is the same reason I do not chew gum, or walk and talk on my cell phone, or even run into the store in my utility uniform. … We are warfighting professionals. Women before us have worked too hard to earn and retain the respect of their male peers. I don’t want my Marines to look at me any other way than as a Marine. When I am asking them to fly into combat with me and do a dangerous mission, I do not want them to have the mental image of a babe at my breast. I want them to only see me as a Marine. Let’s be a realistic folks. We give up many freedoms being in the military…Breastfeeding in front of my fellow Marines was one of them.”

Another commenter on the blog replies:

“There is N-O-T-H-I-N-G more authoritative than a strong mother standing tall breastfeeding as she barks orders. It’s AWESOME that you’ve worked so hard promote breastfeeding, but I think you *might* be selling yourself short.”

The women in the photo have given some thought to the whole question of military versus maternal duties. To those who believe breast-feeding in uniform undermines the authority of a female officer, Echegoyen-McCabe says:

“I guess my thoughts are, if you don’t want to breast-feed in your uniform, you don’t have to. But you should have respect for those who do. … If anything, it should make people look at you as someone who is able to multitask.”

What do you think? Sound off on our TODAY Moms Facebook page.

Pamela Sitt is a champion multitasker who lives in Seattle. She blogs about motherhood on her website, http://www.clarasmom.com.

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

“There is N-O-T-H-I-N-G more authoritative than a strong mother standing tall breastfeeding as she barks orders. It’s AWESOME that you’ve worked so hard promote breastfeeding, but I think you *might* be selling yourself short.”

A thought provoking manly attack on manhood will be countered by a thought provoking feminine defense of feminity.

Appropriate clothes for appropriate activity please F-R-E-A-K-S. These are MILITARY work clothes. Much like smokers who forgot the ‘Smoking Jacket’, or Sunday (or whatever day) Best for days of worship. Uniforms for the heat of battle will be weakened by ‘milkmaid’ energies. Please dress appropriate to the activity. Swaddling smocks and maternity robes for nursing or pregnant mothers respectively, or this is just another display of fashion philistinism under guise of feminism, counter-sumptuary feminism to be precise. The use of the word barking also alludes to literal bitches, what that means, I leave to the overripe imagination and self anointed ‘Feminist Inquisitors’ to butcher themselves or the writers over . . .

There is a a time and place and context, though of course there should also be no rules on the above if the female soldiers *really want to*. If they want to be wetnurses so badly, just join the maternity industry or ‘milk producing’ industry  instead. The stereotype of ‘hard’ or ‘dry’ butch women in military is as bad a stereotype to promote as a woman nursing in combat uniform. Baby’s little soul would be wondering if mom was going to war or is a MAN. Out of Context. Inappropriate and UNCIVILISED! Next thing we know, American female soldiers will be torturing prisoners with sprayings of colostrum, or did that already happen at Abu Gharaib like places . . .

One commentator had the entire view right, though not in the clothes appropriateness or spiritual angle but the commonsense one

. . . Let’s be realistic folks. We give up many freedoms being in the military…Breastfeeding in front of my fellow Marines was one of them.”

ARTICLE 7

Sex harassment shock: One-third of women have considered quitting work over sexism – Monday, 28 May 2012 13:05

Half of women workers are being harassed on a daily basis, including being the butt of chauvinist jokes and hearing sexist remarks.

And 40% have been touched in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable, such as a slap on the bottom or hand on the thigh, a poll of 3,434 female employees said yesterday.

It also found 27% have been kissed despite spurning advances, 66% have had inappropriate comments about their clothes from the boss or other males, and 46% react by dressing down for work.

Shockingly, 33% have considered quitting and 25% suffered mental and physical health problems as a result.

Barrister Rachel Temple, of AdviseMeBarrister.com, said: “We were shocked.

“Women have to run a gauntlet of inappropriate workplace behaviour every day.

“Hundreds of thousands suffer discrimination of some kind, and half of those we spoke to said they didn’t know where to go for help.”

-mirror.co.uk

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

‘Collared’ workers of any type (later leashed with neck ties at office level – which is what neck ties are – unbeknownst to the conformist masses, (even white collar types are just dogs to the boss owner elite and unsuspecting supporters of the ‘Education-Debt Financier Complex’ – you’ll know who these parasites are by their stand on free tertiary education issues), especially lower ranked or younger ones, and  are automatically objectified. The uniform itself another objectifying form (to avoid if one has that luxury). Uniforms have a life of their own (spiritually and symbolically speaking) and combined with collar and tie, you end up with a leashed ‘Dog (or Beast) of War’.

Talking to the SUIT, not the person! The soul of humanity in these people though, returns AFTER WORK HOURS, schizophrenia if anything, especially in those who do not identify with or choose their work consciously from sheer lack of choice (any who have the luxury to dissociate from the above nonsense that is ‘life’ are privileged, other issues not withstanding. . . ). Finally women who cannot get married do not gain the same kind of respect as home makers, with home makers WITH hired help especially privileged (domestic abuse issues either of wife or servant, physical, psychological or emotional, notwithstanding) and the concept of ‘mothers’ and ‘homemakers’ being an eternal classic.

ARTICLE 8

Sergeant Craig Friesen speaks with an alleged prostitute in Orange County, California. – By Martin Savidge – June 13th, 2012 – 07:47 AM ET

Life gets strange hunting traffickers in the U.S.

Anaheim, California (CNN) – It feels odd to be in a car sat next to a guy texting a pimp. Even more odd, he’s pretending to be a prostitute. It can all get a little strange in the digital pursuit of human traffickers.

I’m sitting in the front seat of an SUV in a part of Orange County, California only the locals see – where the hotels are not chains and have names that cops and criminals alike know well. The “prostitute” beside me is actually Sergeant Craig Friesen.

Nearby, either parked or patrolling, are four other vehicles holding the rest of his undercover team.

Earlier, we saw a pickup truck in a parking lot across the street approaching several women. The guy wasn’t having much luck – which was too bad since he was on Friesen’s crew.

Over the radio the detective relayed that after propositioning one lady she did offer a sex act – telling him he should go F$@# himself.

It’s an example of how prostitution can bring down a neighborhood, making it so a woman can’t go to the store without being harassed by some john who’s looking for sex.
Click to watch video

Despite the area being known for the sex trade, things are slow. Either the team’s cover was known or it was an off day. Every business has them.

Then the undercover cop in the pickup gets lucky. He picks up a petite African American girl wearing blue patterned shorts and top. They drive off and we fall in behind trailing at a distance in the noon hour traffic.

Out of nowhere a black and white police car pulls in behind the pickup. The lights flash, the “whoop, whoop” sounds and the pickup is pulled over. Friesen guns the SUV, roaring past the scene and into a nearby alley.

We get out and head back to what appears to be a busted undercover operation but the sergeant’s not upset – this is all part of the plan.

Friesen has the girl take a seat on the curb as the patrol car blocks her from passing traffic. He comes down to her level and begins the most important part of the whole operation – he needs to earn her trust and her confidence.

He begins by explaining she’s not under arrest. It’s in keeping with the new attitude of law enforcement that prostitutes are victims, controlled and manipulated by their pimps. They are caught up in the worldwide plague of human trafficking. And they try to help the victims escape.

Friesen is trying to get the woman to turn her pimp in. Eventually, Friesen tells her, she will be brought back to police headquarters and placed in the care of social services, who will offer her a place to live and a way off the street so she’s not dependent on the pimp for her needs.

The young woman listens but doesn’t buy it. She stays silent. Eventually Friesen gives up and she is taken away. But the sergeant has hung on to her cell phone.
Click to watch video

He sees texts on the phone that appear to come from her pimp, and he responds as if he is the woman. Which is how I came to be seated in an SUV in Anaheim with a prostitute, um, pretend prostitute.

Since her guy thinks she’s gone off with a client, Friesen waits a while, then sends the message that the client left her at a hotel and she needs the pimp to pick her up. He gives the location as a hotel Friesen and his team have already staked out.

A reception committee of several armed officers waits inside the hotel, other spotters are nearby, and Friesen and I are parked across the street as he continuously sends messages to the pimp. “He left come get me.”

Then there’s a problem.

The pimp texts back he wants her to call him which, of course, Friesen can’t do. He quickly improvises and texts back the phone has a problem: “My phone trippin'” and she can only text.

He knows it’s a weak ploy… But what else can he do? The fingers still fly and the digital conversation goes on, but it becomes pretty clear the pimp is suspicious.

The team continues to wait, but after an hour the pimp’s a no-show and the texts stop coming. The operation is finally called off.

Months later, through phone records and surveillance, they finally turn this virtual conversation into a real arrest.

But although they think they have the man who they suspect is forcing a young woman into prostitution, the district attorney’s office doesn’t find enough evidence to make charges stick, and the man is let go.

The end result is something Friesen and his team have grown to accept. A young woman was pulled off the street and offered the opportunity for help. Sometimes that’s all you can hope for.

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

Some of these prostitutes are there of their own volition, and are not being victimised at all, in fact are USING pimps or madams as sales agents and promoters of sorts, because the prostitute does not like to haggle over prices, or because some patrons lose interest in the prostitute when they talk money (bargaining excessively creates bad feelings) with the sex worker.

Also the net effect can be that the pimp or madam gets to be the ‘bad cop’ which improves the quality of sex for some patrons in fact because the prostitute seems so much more ‘good cop’ later on etc.. Communications can be that nuanced, and this is not even the entire gamut of pimp/madam, prostitute, customer relations! The conversation about money for the above example can de-objectify the sex worker and spoil the mood of the hirer.

In either case, the adult services industry has many shades of grey, the issue of non-consensual sex workers or sex workers USING pimps and madams rather than being forced by the pimp or madam is the main one enforcement must understand, with sex work per se best given a proper place (a designated street or district) for sexworkers  to work from with their promoters and also adult establishments to work from or at certain times suitable for adult activities.

Editor’s Note: CNN Freedom Project this week is reporting from the front lines in the fight against sex trafficking – not in the poverty-stricken developing world but in affluent Orange County near Los Angeles, where prostitutes are now treated as trafficking victims rather than criminals.

ARTICLE 9

Hookers Wanted: (For Sandra Bullock, Melissa McCarthy film) By Gayle Fee and Laura Raposa with Megan Johnson / The scoop – Friday, June 15, 2012 – Updated 1 day ago

Billy Dowd is a man looking for hookers, and he doesn’t care who knows it!

He’s also seeking ex-convicts, drug dealers, prison guards and junkies — or anyone who could convincingly portray them on the big screen. That’s because the Scituate casting agent is in charge of hiring extras for the currently untitled “Cop Buddy Comedy” starring Sandra Bullock and Melissa

McCarthy that begins shooting in Boston in late July.

“They don’t have to be real,” Dowd told the Track. “Although they could be real hookers and drug dealers, I don’t care. I’m looking for realism! I need people who can realistically portray them and there are going to be a lot of those types in this film.”

Dowd is also seeking extras to be cops, FBI agents and detectives, prison inmates, “ladies of the evening,” (which wethinks are hookers again) and “energetic and attractive party people.”

The comedy, directed by Paul Feig, who also called the shots for Melissa in “Bridesmaids,” is about a high-strung FBI agent, played by Bullock, who teams up with “an unconventional Boston cop.” Hilarity, as you know, will ensue.

Dowd is holding a casting call later in the month, but if he doesn’t get what he’s looking for there, he’s been known to go to extremes to find the right people for the roles.

“The next step would be to go to groups and organizations where we can find what we’re looking for, you know, like the HOA, Hookers Of America,” he joked.

“When I was casting ‘American Gangster’ in Thailand I actually had to go to those bars where the girls dance, you know, and negotiate with the madame, ‘I’m taking seven girls, how much?’ That’s how I go at it and that’s how we did the bar scene with Denzel Washington.”

Interested in showing Dowd your stuff? Head for the Boston Teachers Union Hall in Dorchester from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. on June 23. Bring a head shot and a pen, because people keep stealing Billy’s.

“No kids!” he insisted. “It’s only for people over 18. Don’t bring your kids because I’m not going to look at them!”

File Under: He’s Gonna Make You A Star.
Inside Track – June 15, 2012:

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

Wealth distribution instead of enrichment of already wealthy actors and actresses! Organic casting and sharing the wealth will be better than fakes. Also some people who might have died of starvation or cold could get to retire in reasonable conditions EVEN as opposed to giving some Joe

Publics a chance, the needs basis of the worst off among people is far more serious. Dowd should always consider that when deciding which person gets that lifeline and which person needs or would appreciate that more. A person with a job or another who might die if they didn’t get cast. Have a heart Dowd. How one feels about the underdog when in a position to do something determines a certain whos who . . . heres rough outline of a bill on a state controlled, perhaps contractor privatizable take on pensions for Adult Industry Workers based around a 401K basis :

Adult Industry Contract : LC Stature Limit Automatically Imposable (i.e. may not own housing in certain areas)

Required work ‘output’ for employees
– 8 hour day. 8 ‘contact’ per hour AND 8 ‘full’ service sessions / day / 16+ (or on a biological/psyche test, recommended study material and test completed basis) only
– double sessions lower required work time by half
– alternatively 1 film per month

2 out of 4 selectable shifts (on condition someone fills in, are selectable and rotatable. And with  meal breaks) otherwise if insufficient manpower will be required to follow any roster assignment of 2 shifts.

4 shifts (on a 5.5 day week):

7-11.30, break 1hr
12.30-5, break 1hr
6-10.30, break 1hr
12.30-5, break 1hr

Renumeration : insurance/meals/housing (in-house cubicle) provided / all usual holidays apply

100K gratuity for incall contracts for 10 year period LMC limit imposed (this is not to discriminate but rather to discourage prostitution as a major profession)
250K gratuity for incall contracts for 20 year period ULC limit imposed
401K gratuity for incall contracts for 30 year period MLC limit imposed

Psyche test needed before specialty contracts :
– 21+ only, fetish specials adds 50% fees (601.5K gratuity) or deducts 15 years
– 23+ only, extreme fetish specials adds 100% fees (802K gratuity) or deducts 20 years
– Virgins only : requirement of genetic and health check, beauty requirements (the issue of psychic imprinting occurs here, damaged goods need not apply . . . ), retires at 23
– Part-Timer (contracter breaktime or absentee fill in persons – see vacancy notice boards at back)
– registered outcallers, health checked freelance escorts

1) Clients wishing to use RLD need to undergo health check before being allowed access to RLD. Sex workers wishing to work in RLD also need to undergo health check before being allowed access to RLD.
2) sex workers should not marry unless formally retired

Try the below articles which inspired the above response :

http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/10-rmb-brothel-sex-workers-comparing-prostitution-to-farming.html

Fun is fun, but even sex workers do need to retire, so instead of being all brimstone and hellfire, upper-class/bureaucrat queasy, or too arrogant to engage the supposed ‘low lifers’ who do keep the night scene going and adding a pulse of life to the city, the state needs to step in to ensure adult workers are safe and catered for in old age as any citizen, even as the more fundo or ill regulated of countries need to formalise adult industry districts or zones.

Here’s an example of ‘Bureaucrat Queasy’ (well in this case maybe doubles, ‘Muslim Queasy’ as well . . . )

Produce Works That Do Not Violate Morals, Ethics    

http://www.malaysianmirror.com/media-buzz-detail/6-nation/58097-produce-works-that-do-not-violate-morals-ethics

Works are a right of humanity, regardless of the type. I hear Malaysia has been banning lots of books? Is quasi fundo in mindset? Is apartheid in application of law and constitution. Telling free citizens of the world to ‘Produce Works That Do Not Violate Morals, Ethics’, is sooo ‘weaksauce’ undemocratic . . .

ARTICLE  10

Obama Pays to Treat Alcoholism in Chinese Hookers : No… actually … Bush Jr did! – edited from original post by Warner Todd Huston (Diary) – Wednesday, May 13th at 5:08AM EDT

Our informative friends at CNSNews.com discovered that the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse (NIAA) has been awarded $2.6 million U.S. tax dollars to help train Chinese prostitutes to “drink responsibly on the job.”

It’s heartwarming that the NIAA cares so deeply about China’s FSWs (that is university speak for whores — Female Sex Workers), and all, but what of American prostitutes?

Dr. Xiaoming Li, the lead leading this program at Wayne State School of Medicine in Detroit, Michigan told CNSNews that his work is “potentially of great importance” as

“Previous studies in Asia and Africa and our own data from FSWs [female sex workers] in China suggest that the social norms and institutional policy within commercial sex venues as well as agents overseeing the FSWs (i.e., the ‘gatekeepers’, defined as persons who manage the establishments and/or sex workers) [we call those pimps in the real word – ed] are potentially of great importance in influencing alcohol use and sexual behavior among establishment-based FSWs,” says the NIH grant abstract submitted by Dr. Li to create a better world for those Chinese “FSWs.”

“Therefore, in this application, we propose to develop, implement, and evaluate a venue-based alcohol use and HIV risk reduction intervention focusing on both environmental and individual factors among venue-based FSWs in China,” as a “community-based cluster randomized controlled trial,”. Dr. Li is all concerned that alcohol plays an important part of spreading HIV infections in China and he prostitution and sexual work in China and USA can be a safer, more fun career choice.

Sex workers in China like to get drunk though that some like being treated like animals does not have any relation to drinking. Some do get drunk as they are not really interested in the work. Both the purveyor and the customer and should have awareness of alcoholism in women cast in the role of a commodity,  so that a sex workers will be worth more than the momentary sexual release that she can facilitate.

Cleverly Obama becomes the president of Chinese hookers . . . though a proper pension and properly assigned space as earlier suggested for sex work should be formalized. All sorts of new and interesting powers in the penumbra of the Constitution, are being found that invariably bring USA and China closer together, even in something as simple as education about alcohol for sex workers.

**UPDATE**

The grant went out in November 2007 so, Obama is not responsible for this funding. Bush is. So at least one thing was done to better relations during the Bush warmonger years. Consideration to issues asian prostitutes face. Dr. Li Xiaoming is aware enough that with this sort of acceptable fringe issue, in sufficient quantity, nations can become closer though not obviously so. Bush an extreme strategist? Can’t imagine . . . maybe some obscure bureau did the above on their own, kuudos in either case . . .

ARTICLE 11

Beedi industry’s child workers trapped in economic slavery – June 11th, 2012 06:18 PM ET

Editor’s note: Davinder Kumar is an award-winning development journalist who works for children’s rights organization Plan International.

Five-year-old Aliya thinks it is a game she must master quickly to be a winner. From the time she wakes up, until she goes to bed, Aliya watches her mother and all the girls and women in her neighborhood consumed in a frantic race: Making beedis – traditional hand-rolled Indian cigarettes.

To create each beedi, the maker painstakingly places tobacco inside a dried leaf sourced from a local ebony tree; tightly rolls and secures it with a thread; and then closes the tips using a sharp knife.

For anything between 10 and 14 hours, regardless of how long it takes, Aliya’s mother and others must all roll at least 1,000 beedis to earn a paltry sum of less than $2 a day, paid by the middleman.

The beedi manufacturers, however, make billions of dollars.

The cigarettes are taken to the warehouses of large manufacturers, where they are packaged before being sold in the market for a much higher price.

Beedis are so popular that they make for nearly half of India’s entire tobacco market. but, behind the country’s unorganized domestic tobacco sector lie invisible millions trapped in modern day economic slavery.

Assembly line of workers

In Aliya’s town of Kadiri in Andhra Pradesh alone, hundreds of families have for generations relied on beedi rolling as their only means of survival.

The labyrinthine, congested lanes of Kadiri slums are home to an assembly line of humans functioning like robots: Young girls and women alike can be seen rolling cigarettes in groups out in the open. Some sway, some rock back and forth appearing entranced, while others have developed odd muscular motions as they push their work speed to the edge of human limits.

For most, if they do not roll enough beedis every day there simply will not be food on the table.

“The pressure to keep up with the speed and meet the target is so intense that many skip their meals and even avoid drinking water so they do not need to go to the toilet,” says Shanu, a community volunteer.

Almost all beedi workers in Kadiri, like the other beedi manufacturing pockets in India, are female and a large of number of them young girls.

Aliya has already started her lessons early and is practising rolling beedis using cuttings of plain paper. “I want to roll beedis and give money to my mother,” she says.

A study released nearly three years ago estimated a scandalous number of over 1.7 million children are working in India’s beedi rolling industry. Children are knowingly engaged by manufacturers due to belief that children’s nimble fingers are more adept at rolling cigarettes.

Hazardous work

Under Indian law, beedi rolling is defined as hazardous work, but a loophole means children who help their parents in their work fall outside the legal framework.

“Formally, it is the women who take on the orders from the contractors,” says Anita Kumar of Plan India. “However, behind the scenes, the pressures these women face in terms of delivering on huge volumes, invariably children, mainly girls, get pulled into this to support their families in beedi rolling.”

As part of its global “Because I am a Girl” campaign, children’s rights organization Plan International has started a program focused on girl child labor in Andhra Pradesh, including girls involved in beedi making. The project will collectively impact 1,500 girls over 3 years. Children trapped in beedi work will need a rescue effort on a much larger scale.

“We are aiming to create a model by working with communities and the local government structures ensuring that children are prevented from falling into this cycle of labor,” says Kumar.

From unhealthy living conditions to exploitative wages, slave-like working conditions and severe health consequences – the situation of beedi workers involves violation of their fundamental rights and freedoms on many levels. The majority of girls are pulled out of education by the time they complete primary school to support their families’ income.

The youngest of four siblings, 11-year-old Salma dropped out of school last year when she had completed grade 4.

“I wanted to continue going to school but we are very poor and have been struggling to pay the rent,” she says as she struggles to draw breath.

Trapped in economic slavery

Salma is suffering from jaundice and is so frail she can barely sit up straight. Yet, she is tasked with rolling up to 1,500 beedis a day to support her family. Squatting on the floor, hunched, she rolls cigarettes for over 12 hours every day and still earns just over two dollars.

In addition to jaundice, Salma has also developed a ringworm infection on her wrist, common in the area due to poor hygiene and sanitation. She is in dire need of medical attention but visiting local hospital means a day off work due to long queues and a day’s wages to pay for transport – her parents cannot afford either.

The health impact on beedi workers is visible on all age groups. Tuberculosis, asthma, body pain and postural problems related with hips and joints are most common.

Continuous beedi rolling leads to absorption of high doses of nicotine directly through skin. The skin on the children’s fingertips begins to thin progressively, and by the time they reach their 40s they cannot roll cigarettes any more.

Mahboobjaan, a mother of three girls, is in her mid-30s and is already losing sensation in her hands. ”My hands often swell up. I don’t know what I will do if I can’t roll beedi anymore,” she says.

The worst thing for beedi workers is the feeling that there is no protection, no welfare, no state support. They vote but have no power or effective representation. For all development indicators they remain at the bottom of the ladder all their lives.

And among them, the girls suffer the most. Throughout their life cycle their basic rights are violated; as children, as child brides, as young mothers, they continue to fight for survival with extreme labour and economic slavery.

In summer as the temperatures reach 45 degrees Celsius, the streets of Kadiri are engulfed in a stifling cloud of tobacco dust. Infants play among heaps of tobacco leaves.

Covered in a pool of sweat, young girls roll beedis with their eyes transfixed on their tobacco tray. Older women, who can no longer roll beedis themselves, help by trimming the ebony leaves. The work continues till late in the night just to secure the next day’s meal and to keep a roof above the workers’ heads.

The next morning, and for almost every morning for the rest of their lives, it is exactly the same story: The breathless race to 1,000 starts all over again with a single beedi.

[The children’s names have been changed].

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

Wealth distribution issues here. Suggest that a ‘Wealth Distribution for Welfare Deductible‘ is imposed on the distribution network at each stage of the supply chain at a level (maybe 10%-30% levies per stage of supply chain to be released after a set period? How many ruppees is that over a lifetime or per month to allow retirement at comfortable middle class by age 55 for example?) to ensure the professional beedi makers have a reasonable quality of life. If beedi making conditions are too harsh or labour intense, the industry will get a bad reputation and the workers will try to leave the industry, with continuity of the industry dependent on India’s poverty and by extension the sub-conscious desire of beedi smokers to want cheeper bidis and thus subconsciously keep India poor in a vicious psychic, psychological undercurrent that keeps India from raising the status of India’s poorest.

ARTICLE 12

Jesse ‘The Mind’ Ventura On Politics, Porsches And Paddleboards – 6/13/2012 @ 5:41PM

Call him Jesse “The Mind” or Jesse “The Body” Ventura, the former pro-wrestler and Minnesota governor talks to me about his latest book, “DemoCRIPS and ReBLOODicans”, crazy tax policies, and why he’s more Occupy than Tea Party.

Monday afternoon, two p.m. in Minneapolis, three p.m. in New York. On the phone with Jesse Ventura.

Kenneth Rapoza: I’d recognize that voice anywhere.

Jesse Ventura: [chuckles, signature Jesse] It’s a hard one to miss. Good to talk with you today, Ken.

KR: This morning on The Takeaway, Joseph Stiglitz was talking about income inequality and the growing      inequality of opportunity in the U.S. You’re a Vietnam vet. Are we more divided now than we were then, at least politically speaking?

JV: We were more divided then. The true turning point as a nation was when the National Guard shot four students dead at Kent State. We’re divided, but they haven’t shot anybody since.

KR: Would you send your kids to war today?

JV: I’d be a conscientious objector. You’re going to war for corporations, not for people. Smedley Butler, a general in the Marine Corp., said that about our interventions in Central America. It’s a very well known critique about U.S. wars.

KR: I’ve heard it many times. But there’s a different kind of division now, not just politically right and left. We’re seeing a class division creep in. The rich really are getting richer — way richer in fact — and the middle class are definitely getting poorer. I was surprised to see, but you write a lot

about that in your book. You’re a one percenter. What’s it all look like to you in Minnesota?

JV: Well, for one, our property values have dropped by over 20% but my property taxes haven’t. Why is it that our homes are worth less and middle class Minnesotans are worth less but are property taxes aren’t coming down?

KR: I don’t know. You tell me. You were the governor.

JV: Not anymore. And I don’t miss it one bit. That’s all policy decisions at the state level. I gave taxes back when I was governor. They can’t even balance their budget and its state law to do so.  You know where our taxes go?

KR: Let me guess.

JV: Well, a lot of it went to bailout out banks and the rich. During the last Great Recession or whatever you want to call it, I’ll have to quote the Wall Street protesters, the 99 percent lost money. But the rich made money. They got wealthier thanks to policies that helped them get wealthier. They didn’t get wealthier because they are smart investors.

KR: You’re right about that. Even Citi says so.

JV: You want to hear something funny about taxes?

KR: Is that a joke, like a Polish man walks into a bar?

JV: No. But it’s laughable. I’m learning to paddleboard. In Minnesota you need to get a license to paddleboard because the board is over nine feet long. So you have to pay a fee. And you have to wear a life jacket.

KR: Please tell me Jesse “The Body” isn’t wearing a life jacket on a paddle board.

JV: If I showed up with a life jacket to protect me from the wake of a boat that’s maybe a foot high I’d be laughed out of the lake. This is the stuff politicians can agree on. These are the kinds of policies we the people get.

KR: They must have hated you in Minnesota. An independent who doesn’t have to raise money because getting publicity for you isn’t a problem.

JV: I’m one of the few people who actually made money as governor. I spent less money to get elected than I earned. Everyone else pays a million dollars to get paid a hundred and twenty grand.  When I was governor, I was up against both parties and they vetoed me all the time. On that front they were united. They vetoed my balanced budget because they thought it would make my re-election bid less likely for the voters so they could turn to one of the two gangs again. But I didn’t run. That surprised them. And now they have around a $5 billion deficit, worse than Wisconsin.

KR: What do you think about [Wisc. governor] Scott Walker?

JV: I think he beat [Tom] Barrett because he had more money. Whoever gets the most bribe many can put the ads on TV. And now with Citizens United and SuperPACs unleashed, these groups can lie about their favorite candidate and the politician isn’t held responsible for the content.  I think every politician should wear a NASCAR race suit at this point.

KR: Why’s that?

JV: You know how the NASCAR race suits all have the ads stitched on them from the driver’s sponsors? Politicians should wear that too so we can see who owns them. It’s laughable what we have turned our elections into today, where bribery is okay. We should only put candidates names on

the ballot without their party affiliation so people will have to actually know the candidate. They make it too easy today. You don’t have to know the candidate’s name. You just go in and vote for a party.

KR: What do you think of Karl Rove? Guy’s like the king of secret funding operations.

JV: I think he’s a chicken hawk. He leads from the rear, not from the front.  Likes to send kids to war. Know how to tell if a war is justified? If you’re willing to send your kids to fight it. If you’re only willing to send someone else’s it’s not justified. I’m 60 years old now and we have been at war somewhere half of my adult life, and I’m not even including the war on drugs.

KR: Should we legalize drugs?

JV: Yes. The Beatles wrote the greatest album in history [Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band] high on LSD. Anna Nicole Smith died by overdosing on prescription drugs from big pharmaceutical companies. I’m not saying you legalize crack. Why not legalize marijuana. You can make biodiesel from it, and start using corn for food instead of ethanol.

KR: I was impressed with all your foot notes in the book. How long did it take you to write this thing?

JV: Four months in Mexico. I have a house down there in Baja. It’s where I can concentrate. No TV. Totally off the grid. I’m solar powered.

KR: Wow! I didn’t know that Jesse “The Body” was a pot smoking latte liberal. You probably drive a Prius.

JV: No, I drive a twin turbo Porsche 450 horse power all wheel drive six speed. I don’t even have a cell phone because when you’re driving that thing you want to concentrate on the ride.

KR: Okay. What about this: Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street?

JV: Occupy Wall Street definitely.

KR: Why?

JV: Tea Party is owned by the Koch brothers. The grassroots supporters of the Tea Party will never get what they want, unless they think lower corporate taxes and oligarchy are the answers to their prayers. Occupy is still marginally independent. I attended a Minnesota Occupy rally five different times. I handed out hand warmers. At the time, we were cheering on the Arab Spring protesters and pepper spraying our own protesters at home. Park ordinance didn’t allow them to even have generators at night to keep them warm. But there was one generator that was allowed to run, and that was the one that was powering the surveillance camera that was keeping an eye on them.

KR: Occupy seems to be weakening. They don’t have the monied interests behind them. Is the Tea Party relevant anymore?

JV: I think they are still relevant. They got a lot of people elected, but they are not the answer.[For the answers, go buy his book.]

KR: What’s your political future?

JV: None. People ask me to run again. I’d rather be surfing in Mexico for four to five months a year.

KR: That sounds much better. I think every ex-President would agree with that.  Let’s change the subject. What happened with “Conspiracy Theory”? [Jesse’s show on TruTV.]

JV: Finished eight episodes in November but it ain’t on. No start date. It’s still sitting there in production at TruTV. I’ll be surprised if they even put them on. This would have been our third season.

KR: Is there a conspiracy against Jesse Ventura?

JV: I don’t know.

KR: I have to say that if someone ever told me at 15 that I would one day be talking to Jesse “The Body” Ventura, I wouldn’t believe it. Wrestlemania was a show!

JV: I did six of ‘em. Man, that was a long time ago.

KR: [starts to crack up with childhood memories] I remember one Wrestlemania, you’re on the floor giving play by play with Bobby “the Brain” Heenon and there’s “Hacksaw” Jim Duggan with his two-by-four in the air, his tongue hanging out, looking like a mess [Jesse starts to remember, starts

to laugh] and you’re like, ‘Look at that guy, just look at that snot hanging out of his nose.’ The way you emphasized the word ‘snot’.  It was hilarious to every teenage and tweenage boy in America. Me and my brother are still talking about it and we’re in our thirties.

JV: Vince McMahon [the brains behind the World Wrestling Federation, as if any reader didn’t know that] was the P.T. Barnum of the century.  Hey, one time I went back stage and was telling Koko B. Ware the stuff I was going to say about him during the show. I did that all the time so the wrestlers wouldn’t get upset. We were all friends, ya know. So I say on the air that the B in his name stood for Buckwheat, because he was Buckwheat’s grandson. And I got in trouble for that. That was the first time I was really ever censored for saying something like that and ironically, Eddie

Murphy was doing his Buckwheat character on Saturday Night Live and Buckwheat  was on the earliest show to ever showcase a racially diverse neighborhood, but it came from a white guy so it was banned and I was scolded for it.

KR: Oh well, live and learn.

JV: I hope Americans learn. I’ve been telling them this about their government for the past 10 years.

KR: You’re not alone. I think it’s clicking in now.

JV: Yeah. I think you’re right.

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

If the state of Minnesota having a 5 billion debt has them squealing over there like little girls, just think how a country a fraction the size like Malaysia with so many times the population has over half a trillion in debt would do.

USA : 9.830,000 million square kilometers (debt 15 Trillion) 30 times more debt with a population/land ratio 10 times less crowded (larger distributable land base which politicians have selfishly not effected)

Malaysia : 0.329,758 million square kilometers (debt 0.5 Trillion) 30 times less debt but 30 times smaller  with a population/land ratio 3 times more crowded (smaller distributable land base which politicians have selfishly not effected)

Malaysia is as deep in debt and doing far worse than USA by a size to population ratio consideration, and guess who the 1% ters are? Run for election as president Jesse. Somehow the people around the world are too stupid or afraid to consider private candidacy, these hegelian dialectic (http://dont-tread-on.me/?tag=hegelian-dialectic) idiots have made independent thought impossible and since you are well placed with sufrficient cash to at least make the attempt through an internet campaign at least, how about giving 3rds Force a REAL voice in USA to inspire the rest of the pond scum nepotist oligarch, plutocrat term limitless politician run world? Obama was a great image man, but I think policy wise the whole Obama in White House thing not really working . . . and if Romney comes into power the collusion will be unbelievable much like how a mere Mayor (looks TERM LIMITLESS to me . . . ), Mayor Bloomberg is worth 20 billion . . . (thats 50,000 401Ks for 1 person, while homeless and starving abound in NY . . . ) Finally get USA to implement TERM LIMITS on all levels of government, I don’t think there is a need to explain why, someone has to set an example against cults of personality and against seat hogging oligarchs to the 3rd World.

This one is inspired by the Egyptian ‘quandry’ over lack of choices in June 2012. Don’t complain about lack of choice, and MAKE CHOICES. Just run for candidacy against the bad candidates.

ARTICLE 12

Can Israel Afford a Moral Foreign Policy? – Jonathan S. Tobin 06.15.2012 – 4:31 PM

Earlier this week, I noted the fact that while President Obama has chosen not to visit Israel since taking office even when visiting the Middle East, Russia’s Vladimir Putin will be making his second trip to the Jewish state this month. The fact that Obama is still so resentful of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that he couldn’t bring himself to go to Jerusalem even when it would clearly be in his political interests to do so, while Putin thinks it is good politics to go there, struck me as interesting. But our friends at the Forward have a very different take on the story. In an editorial published this week, they think it is wrong for Israel to receive Putin and urge it to cancel the visit.

In assessing this position, we need to start by saying this is the sort of editorial that explains why there is a difference between government and journalism. In seizing the moral high ground on Putin, the Forward editorialist is taking a stand that no Israeli government, no matter how righteous or devoted to the cause of human rights in Russia, Syria and Iran it might be, can possibly take. Israel has enough enemies without picking a fight with Putin even the United States would be wary of starting. This is the sort of unrealistic moral preening that we journalists love to indulge in. There is also the fact that the Forward, whose idolatry of Barack Obama seems to be boundless, has been noticeably quiet in expressing criticism of the administration’s desire for a “reset” with Putin or his appeasement of Russia on a number of different fronts.

But having said that, I’m prepared to concede the editorial has a point, especially with regard to the egregious praise of Putin on the part of Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, and that the question of how moral Israel’s foreign policy should be is not solely a matter for idle journalistic posturing.

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

Different gist when I heard that. And Israel is making way too much fuss and has not kept the UN bargain to letter (at least till 26th June 2012, see article http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/27/world/middleeast/jewish-settlers-begin-evacuation-of-ulpana.html?pagewanted=all) to be considered a writer of moral foreign policy. USA’s reins are slipping here, and if USA cannot clean up in the Middle East, there is no way USA can take on Russia, conventionally at any rate. They will be using all kinds of unpleasant wave form or satellite brain frying or partial access weather tech they have now with a M.A.D. scenario occuring immensely harmful to everyone.

Iran alone can overrun Israel. And Israel probably would be the very nation that destroys the planet and the human race by firing nukes and irradiating everything in a panic when overrun. Iran has stated they won’t use nukes knowing they can overrun Israel, but Israel being no match for Iran conventionally, will have to drag USA and Russia into a 3rd World War if not fire those Israeli nukes and irradiate everything. The Middle East will wilt away in the first year, the rest of the world in less than 10, and this is on top of what Fukushima already released at a magnitude 100s of times worse than Chernobyl . . .

The Israeli citizens not in Israel’s parliament had better vote very wisely with the possibility of the M.A.D. scenario in mind. In fact if I were USA or even Russia, I’d start assassinating any nuke trigger happy types in either Israel or Iran. The radioactivity of the new Uranium Nukes they have will make Hiroshima H-bomb and Nagsaki H-bomb look like toys and can kill everything on the planet (unless specifically H-Bombs and NEVER anything heavier are used ONLY) on a scale 100s of times worse than Chernobyl.

That is what the Uranium Nukes are like. Just 1 Uranium Nuke is enough to finish off most weaker ecosystems and destroy all neighbouring areas for 1000s of miles in radius. Does that not justify ending use of nukes larger than H-Bombs? Use of conventionals is acceptable but nukes, especially Uranium nukes, is just end game for everything on the planet. Does the EU or AU or USA know this, even as they are stuck in the Middle East? Begin that initiative to ban ALL nuclear weapons.

‘Sadistic and surpassed belief’: Evil pair jailed for MINIMUM of 55 years for torturing 15-year-old boy to death after accusing him of being a witch – by Amy Oliver – Created 1:05 PM on 5th March 2012

In better judgments, England, Justice, taxpayer funds on March 7, 2012 at 4:40 pm

Eric Bikubi ordered to serve at least 30 years and Maglie Bamu a minimum of 25 years
Bikubi told Kristy and siblings to jump out of the window to see if they could fly during abuse
Judge says the belief in witchcraft, however genuine, could not be an excuse
Judge agrees the couple also attacked Kristy’s sisters but would not pass separate sentences
Kristy’s father Pierre said his son died in ‘unimaginable circumstances at the hands of people he loved and trusted’

A couple were today jailed for life for the ‘sadistic’ torture and drowning a teenage boy they accused of being a witch.

Kristy Bamu, 15, died on Christmas day 2010 after suffering four days of horrific abuse at the hands of his sister Magalie, 29, and her partner, Eric Bikubi, 28, in their flat in Newham, east London.

The pair used weapons including a metal bar, hammer, chisel, pliers and even heavy ceramic floor tiles to inflict 130 injuries on Kristy, after he refused to say he was a witch.

Jailed: Eric Bikubi, left, and his partner Magalie Bamu, right, were both jailed for life today for the horrific torture of Magalie’s brother Kristy, which led to his death

Jailed: Eric Bikubi, left, and his partner Magalie Bamu, right, were both jailed for life today for the horrific torture of Magalie’s brother Kristy, which led to his death

The teenager eventually drowned in the bath in front of his four terrified siblings as Bikubi hosed them down with freezing water in an abhorrent ‘cleansing’ ritual.

Football coach Bikubi and Magalie were found guilty of murder at the Old Bailey last week.
Today Bikubi was ordered to serve at least 30 years and Bamu a minimum of 25 years.

Sentencing, Judge David Paget told the couple the case was particularly serious and involved sadistic behaviour.

‘It was prolonged torture involving metal and physical suffering being inflicted before death,’ he said adding: ‘I am in no doubt that this murder did involve a sadistic element.’

He told Bikubi that he accepted his mental damage may have made him more inclined to believe Kristy was a witch and a threat to the young child of the family.

Victim: 15-year-old Kristy Bamu, pictured left with a friend, suffered 130 injuries after being hit with an arsenal of weapons including broken ceramic floor tiles

But added: ‘The belief in witchcraft, however genuine, cannot excuse an assault to another person, let alone the killing of another human being.’

He told Magalie he did not accept her denial of belief in witchcraft and that she was forced to attack Kristy by Bikubi.

‘It is only explicable if you shared Eric Bikubi’s belief. It provides some explanation for what happened, but it does not excuse it,’ he told her.

Judge Paget said the couple had also attacked Kristy’s sisters but he would not pass separate sentences for that.

In court: Kelly Bamu, pictured on the witness stand, said Kristy asked for forgiveness. ‘He asked again and again,’ she said, adding ‘Magalie did absolutely nothing. She didn’t give a damn’

In court: Kelly Bamu, pictured on the witness stand, said Kristy asked for forgiveness. ‘He asked again and again,’ she said, adding ‘Magalie did absolutely nothing. She didn’t give a damn’

He added: ‘The ordeal they were subjected to almost surpasses belief.’

Kristy had come to London from Paris with his two brothers and two sisters to spend the festive season with Magalie.

But things turned sour when Kristy wet himself and the couple, who were said to be obsessed with witchcraft known as kindoki in their native Democratic Republic of Congo, accused him of witchcraft.

Bikubi, a heavily-built sportsman, accused the teenager of trying to control another child in the house and of orchestrating a series of unlucky events, the court had heard.

He punched, kicked and headbutted his victim before beating him with a metal weight-lifting bar ‘as hard as he could’ and knocking out his teeth with a hammer.

Violent evidence: Kristy suffered 130 injuries after being tortured for four days with weapons including broken ceramic floor tiles

Witchcraft: These weapons were found at the scene in what officers called an ‘unprecedented scenario’

Evidence: Officers found a whole array of weapons in the flat, including pliers, a pole, and a piece of wood

Terrible death: Kristy’s last words were ‘I just want to die now’ before he slipped underneath the water in the bath

In one act of savage cruelty, as Kristy’s siblings were hit, forced to join in and help clear the blood, Magalie ripped apart one of his ears with a pair of pliers.

At one point, Bikubi told the youngsters to jump out of the window to see if they could fly, the court heard.

Five hours of desperate phone calls were made to Kristy’s parents in Paris but at first they did not believe their children and were then unable to travel because of the Christmas break.

On Christmas Day, with his face beaten to a barely recognisable pulp, Kristy was thrown into a bath.

His last words were ‘I just want to die now’ before slipping underneath the water.

Kristy’s sister Kelly, now 21, broke down several times in court as she relived the terror. She said: ‘It was as if they (Bikubi and Magalie) were obsessed by witchcraft. They decided we had come there to kill them.’

Kelly added: ‘Kristy asked for forgiveness. He asked again and again. Magalie did absolutely nothing. She didn’t give a damn. She said we deserved it.’

In mitigation Henry Grunwald QC, for Bikubi, said: ‘What happened would not have ended as it did had it not been for Mr Bikubi’s mental impairment.’

Shocking: This was the squalid and bloodstained scene police were confronted by when they discovered the killing of Kristy Bamu by his sister and her partner in Newham, east London

Scene of the crime: Kristy was forced to pray for deliverance for four days and deprived of food and water

While Philippa McAlasney QC, for Magalie, said: ‘Not only has she has lost her entire family, she faces a solitary life in prison.’

Kristy’s father, Pierre, said in a statement: ‘Kristy died in unimaginable circumstances at the hands of people he loved and trusted – people we all loved and trusted.

‘I feel betrayed. To know that Kristy’s own sister, Magalie, did nothing to save him makes the pain that much worse.’

Scotland Yard has investigated 83 cases involving abuse resulting from ritualistic or faith-based beliefs, and brought 17 prosecutions, over the last 10 years.

Detective Superintendent Terry Sharpe said: ‘This is a hidden and under-reported crime and therefore difficult to deal with in terms of protecting potential victims from harm.

IMMIGRANTS IN THE GRIP OF ‘FERAL SUPERSTITION’

Christian fundamentalist pastors in Britain are fuelling the belief in witchcraft, experts have warned.

Dr Richard Hoskins, a police adviser, said he has spoken to many immigrant Londoners gripped by the potential power of malicious ‘spirits’ threatening to damage their families.

Traditional methods of exorcism include wearing a charm, fasting or sacrificing an animal and are controlled by the Church.

The university lecturer warned that Christian extremists and evangelists have begun taking advantage of vulnerable families and perpetuating beliefs in witchcraft by offering expensive ‘deliverance services’.

Dr Hoskins said: ‘What seems to happen is that there is this dislocation and, in this case, something feral and wild. It is completely out of control.’

The issue was first highlighted by the case of eight-year-old Victoria Climbie in 2000. Victoria, who travelled to Britain from the Ivory Coast, died at the hands of her aunt and her boyfriend after being branded a witch.

A year later the torso of a Nigerian boy, named Adam by police, was found in the Thames after he was ritually sacrificed.

Police believe he may have been killed by someone with a terminal illness who believed his murder would save them.

In 2005, three people were convicted of beating, cutting and rubbing chilli peppers in the eyes of an eight-year-old Angolan girl to ‘beat the devil out of her’.

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

Life for life as will be judged and decided by the victim’s family, if not after determining that the victim’s family is not incapable of making judgment the judge instead. Or if the victim survived, the victim gets to decide to torture in the same manner. Otherwise let the creeps go or shoot them if they appear to be likely to kill more people and show not remorse etc… 55 years x 2 people x 40K a year will make these offenders cost the English taxpayers 4.4 million pounds, something both victim and offenders AND the entire families of both victim and offenders AS WELL would not earn even in 55 years.

Wakey wakey, or is that perfumed and rollered wig, black robes and massive dais mounted podium desk, making thinking too difficult for the judge?

3 Articles : Considerations on ‘Underage’ Marriage and Ambiguous Actions considered Criminal (with response on Definition of Underage), Neutrality in the Controversial : Discussions on Paedophelia – reposted by @AgreeToDisagree – 15th Februaery 2012

In Abuse of Power, critical discourse, criticism, flawed judgments, freedom of choice, Freedom of Expression, if not contrived, individualism, Informed Consent, intent, Invasive Laws, Justice, Media Neutrality, mothers, political correctness, Prostitution, psychiatry, self policing, Sexuality, social freedoms, spirit of the law, spirit of the word, subculture persecution, word of the law on February 15, 2012 at 3:31 pm

ARTICLE 1

Getting married at 14 – 9 December 2010 | Save The Children | Posted by Noreen Ariff (exchange/discussion on early marriage)

News that a 22 year old school teacher had got married to a 14 year old girl has caused shockwaves in Malaysia, reverberating around the world. Recall what it was like to be 14 again, and consider if such marriages really can hold water under the law.

I still remember the 14th year of my life vividly. Every day I would wake up early in the morning to catch the morning bus to go to religious school. It lasted for 3 hours every day where afterwards I would go home and get ready to go to normal school ( this of course doesn’t mean that religious school is abnormal, I can’t think of a better description of a day school). Once in school, my friends and I would chat and chat about homework, gossiped about girls that we didn’t like and the latest boy bands that had got our fancy.

This routine continued every day for 5 days a week. Saturdays were for girl-guides and other clubs and as soon as my activities finished, I would catch a bus straight home to watch cartoons and old Malay movies on the then Singaporean Channel 5. Sundays were cartoons, 90210 and homework, lots and lots of homework. In between I would call my best friend, and we would chat and chat to our hearts content. Of course I had to help out with the household chores but let’s leave that out. In short, life was bliss. It had only one purpose: to be a kid.

My body was also changing. I had stopped wearing training bras and began using the real ones. I had gotten my period which was a bit of bother. At 14, I had only the slightest idea about sex. Sex out of wedlock is a no-no in Islam and from the medical books I read, the idea of sex actually grossed me out. I only properly learnt about the human reproduction system at 15, in science class. So at 14, I would say that I was still very awkward and blur. Did I feel and did my mum think that I was an adult just because I had breasts and was menstruating once a month? I don’t think so.

Yes, I wanted to have a boyfriend then, but at 14 marriage was the last thing on my mind. The main focus in life was to do well in school and get into a reputable university so that I can get a high-paying job, buy everything that I ever wanted, travel the world and change it. If my mum wanted to marry me off then, I would have rebelled and ran away from home because in my mind child marriages only exist in third-world countries where women were not educated, where her family had no means to support her and she had to depend on men.

I must have forgotten that Malaysia is a third-world country with third-world mentalities dominating our minds as if we had no other choice. I must have forgotten that not all parents are the same. Not all parents think that 14 year olds are kids, nor understand that having breasts and menstruation do not make these kids adults. Not all parents are patient enough to go through tough teenage years with their kids and encourage them to forget about the opposite sex for a while and stay focused on themselves and their studies.

I must have also forgotten that not all teachers are educators. I must have forgotten that once upon a time our Prophet Muhammad PBUH married Aishah, who was still a child and that is why some Muslims think it’s okay for a kid to get married. I must have forgotten that once a upon a time, Mansor Adabi a teacher of 22 years of age married Natrah, who was then 13 and our grandparents thought nothing of it.

I have forgotten that times may have changed but some minds are still trapped in the Stone Age.

I doubt Prophet Muhammed PBUH would have married Aishah if he was a prophet now and yes, I doubt Mansor Adabi and Natrah would have gotten married. The circumstances would have been different. Primary and secondary education in Malaysia now is free and available to all. Malaysian women have made it to the top echelons of organisations. I am sure these women would not be where they are right now if they had gotten married at 14. (Blesphemy! Lol, jk, but it’s a good thing Noreen is not in the worst of the Muslim world. Noreen’d be strung up and quartered, keel hauled, FGMed or whatever.)

I am appalled that after all these years there are still parents who allow their underage kids to get married and even more when their insanity is entertained by the Syariah Court who consented to these marriages. The country was just shocked by the news of the 11 year old who got married to an old man, we are now faced with news of a celebration of a 14 year old kid who got married to a 23 year old primary school teacher. The kid was quoted as saying “it’s going to be hard to juggle two roles – a student and a wife- but I’m taking it in my stride”.

I am wondering whether she fully understands what she has gotten herself into. Marriage is not about copulating and procreating alone. Everything might be rosy right now but how would she feel in a couple of years, if not months? While her friends woke up to go to school, studying or eyeing on the most good looking guy in school, she has to wake up, get the breakfast ready for her husband and after school, while others went straight to bury themselves in homework and tuition, she has to cook, wash, clean the house before night time where she has to do her wifely duties. How would she cope with pregnancy and morning sickness? She would have to miss school and probably even more after she gave birth. When her friends are burning the midnight oil for PMR and SPM, she is awake at night tending to her babies. What would she decide, if let’s say she got a place at a university that is far away from the place her husband is working. What we she do when she met a lot more men when she grew up? Would she still love her husband or resent him?

Did the Syariah Court, her parents and hubby think of all these? What are the criteria before such a marriage is allowed? Section 8 of the Islamic Family Law (Federal Territories) Act 1984 merely states:

No marriage may be solemnized under this Act where either the man is under the age of eighteen or the woman is under the age of sixteen except where the Syariah Judge has granted his permission in writing in certain circumstances.

By this section alone, there are no guidelines or fixed criteria on what constitutes “certain circumstances”. If there were guidelines, I just hope they are not parents’ consent, ability of the future husband to support and the girl has reached puberty!

Getting married just to stop the couple from any immoral behaviour is the smallest aspect of things; parents should look into the bigger spectrum of life. Perhaps they should start by watching the movie Juno or An Education (haha)! Your 14 year old kid may be getting her periods, with breasts, stopped playing with Barbie dolls and all – but they are still kids. Parents should know that teenage girls are also easily attracted to older men who seem to know the world. If only the girls waited a little longer, they would know that they too can have the world, on their own.

If the parents can’t see the big picture, the husband, who is a 23 year old teacher, should be able to. He after all is supposed to be educated and more level-minded. Having people like him as teachers makes me wonder about the quality of people allowed to be teachers of our future generation?

Teachers are not here just to teach but they are supposed to inspire our kids to reach their fullest potential. Here we have a teacher who got involved with an underage girl and in marrying her, he had coincidentally robbed her of her childhood. Something that he probably had, how would he feel if he got married at 14? Somehow he has no qualms from robbing his wife from hers. How is this teacher going to be a role model to his students in school? What is he going to say to his students, study and get married or enjoy your school life, get a job, be the best in what you do and then settle down? If he truly loved this girl, he would wait.

If the parents were responsible parents, they would have lodged a complaint against this teacher and get him transferred and as far away as possible from their daughter. Their daughter has a right to have her childhood and if Article 5 of the Federal Constitution of Malaysia means more than the right to live and includes the quality of life, then the parents, husband and the Sharia Court have clearly violated one of the most fundamental liberties of the Constitution.

It is a travesty when on the one hand rape with minors is considered statutory rape because they are under the age of consent and on the other marriages with minors are allowed. I am not saying the teacher is a paedophile but if he was, paedophiles should not be punished by allowing them to get married. Section 8 of the Islamic Family Law and any law of its kind should be repealed.

The 14 year old kid should stay a kid, no matter how much she wanted to get married; she is still a kid. There is a saying that childhood is the most beautiful of life’s seasons so do not lose it by rushing to grow up. If the parents and the guy truly loved her, they should encourage her to choose school, study, friends, gossiping with other girls about the best looking guy in their class, choose love and lost and love again, choose university, choose a career, choose independence. Do not choose marriage at the age of 14, do not make that mistake.

Choose life. Marriage at 14 is not a life.

Noreen Ariff loves being single but yes, she would like to get married…someday. She believes that people should only get married when they are mentally, emotionally and financially ready. Her LoyarBurokking here is on her own time, and her own views. They bear no reflection on the organisation she works for.

44 Responses to Getting married at 14

AgreeToDisagree
21 December 2010 – 9:16 am

hi @pointofview

Thanks for the kind word. I don’t like leaving room for misunderstanding by keeping elegantly silent or keeping people misinformed to empower myself, or to cause others to err then blame them, or give others reason to ostracise or abuse them after intentionally causing them to trip up (first hand to the N-th here), and this is the only principled way to communicate.

By being on an even playing field, though ‘stupidos’ could also be propagandists and advocates of authoritarianism via neurolinguistic programming half the time seeking to enrich themselves at the expense of the people.

These mental goons probably seek to propagate acceptance of 3rd world paradigms of tasering, abusive attitudes by counter staff, abuse of citizens by enforcement, shoot-first policy, entrapment, electronic harrassment, alongside other miserable and inhuman methods to enslave and contaminate democratic principles with grey area abuses while their family Oligarchs reserve MP seats and hand down the same MP seats between their children and grandchildren or sometimes partly hidden through cosanguinity (imagine Khairy marrying Nurul or something along those lines or every former PM’s child being a Minister or PM) . . . you get the picture (thats also how UMNO imploded with Pak-Lah-KJ vs. dr.Evil-Mukhriz creating so much resentment that so many disappointed voters ran for Pakatan and the same in Pakatan now causing voters to run for MCLM and KITA or becoming independents).

It is sheer inadequacy that makes these insane people go around spreading rumours or harming others. It is worse when those listening and believing the rumours are induced to act. What kind of justice or reparation can be sought? Those who broke the law should be punished accordingly or at the very least in kind. We have to keep aware and alert the public to such behaviour and seek to prevent continuation of such behaviour via educating the voters on such issues and building awareness for everyone to be wary of the modus operandi of such abusers.

And as we know a large portion of crimes are done by people who know the victim, so don’t be too excited or flattered or frightened by sudden boons or banes in the form of people or gift horses, they are easily inventions of the sick society we live in, right all the way up to the political parties in power.

pointofview
20 December 2010 – 10:32 pm

@ Agreetodisagree

I salute you for the facts that you have mentioned in your earlier comments to date. It is pointless to go into an argument or battle with some stupidos who can’t think out of the box. Anyway, bravo for justifying your points.

@ SiewEng

Yes, she made the right choice for her. A man and a woman or should I say a boy and a girl can meet in any circumstances, there shouldn’t be so much emphasize on the teacher student relationship. How if the cupid’s arrow striked between a doctor (a man) and a patient (a young girl 14 maybe)? Love is blind darling. It’s good if it ends up with marriage rather than other social ill issues. Right?

And as for others who have commented here…. start thinking out of the box. It looks like you guys are the ones living in the primitive world… go figure…

siewchinteo
20 December 2010 – 6:24 pm

at times it is difficult to reconcile how a person who “thinks out of the box” can actually accept hudud law…..or any restrictive law for that matter.

but what do i know – i am 3rd world and supports chopping off the head of anyone who harms a child.

AgreeToDisagree
20 December 2010 – 2:38 pm

No wonder the quality of our legal system is dropping. We have someone ready to deny facts than face them.

1) I understand every word that you have used in your reply . . .

But you lack the EQ or are afraid to absorb it.

2) But I think I speak on behalf of everyone here when I say, they seem to mean nothing when read as a sentence. Lol.

I don’t think so. If you read without thinking or trying to understand what is written that usually ends up bring the case.

3) No such thing as constitutional amendment when the basic structure of the constitution does not envisage the hudud law……ever!

Hudud does not need to exist upon Constitution. It exists in the hearts of the faithful in Islam, and those willing to be punished under it’s auspices. If you are a disciplined Muslim or a non-Muslim, no need to fear Hudud.

4) Once again, to keep things simple, go read your federal constitution you fucking nimrod!

Twist around trying to evade the facts, but facts remain facts. The federal constitution is not only to be read, but amended you fucking dimknob.

5) I also must add, you are one fucking dumbshit.

Speak for yourself. Still no case, now compounded by trying to evade facts with ‘value deducted’ sentence structures.

Let the readers judge the points (or in your case non-points) in this exchange for themselves.

Ali Davidson
20 December 2010 – 7:56 am

AgreetoDisagree,

I understand every word that you have used in your reply but I think I speak on behalf of everyone here when I say, they seem to mean nothing when read as a sentence. Lol.

It is just pure baloney.

No such thing as constitutional amendment when the basic structure of the constitution does not envisage the hudud law……ever!

Once again, to keep things simple, go read your federal constitution you fucking nimrod!

I also must add, you are one fucking dumbshit.

AgreeToDisagree
18 December 2010 – 3:35 pm

@Ali Davidson,

I keep walking into rooms full of establishment minded people who are unable to employ either critical or lateral thought. Or who wish to keep their fellow citizens in an easy manipulated state? I will presume you belong to the former category and so the responsibility falls upon to debunk yet again.

“You can’t apply Hudud la you dumbshit.” Is that so? Oh yes you certainly can apply Hudud.

Hudud Whipping? A Hudud signatory could call it a BDSM club with no physical contact to remain legal in Islam.

Hudud limb removal as pubnishment? A Hudud signatory could claim it was an association for treatment of body integrity identity disorder (BIID).

If Hudud is applied anywhere consensually under the above, the Federal Parliament have no say. And though it VAINLY claims to have the right to, the claim is absolutely inapplicable and should not even be brazenly misrepresented as being applicable. Dishonesty is a terrible sickness of so-called ‘Democratic Governments’.

QUOTE Journal of Applied Philosophy – “amputations should be morally permissible” on the grounds that people with BIID are not “globally irrational”. UNQUOTE

On this technicality and by the methods above, Hudud could be applied.

IT IS THEIR BODY, SO THEIR RIGHT ANYWAY, not for anyone to deny or legislate. More authoritarianism on your part? The constitution is a guideline that can change with time thats why there are CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS. Given the sorry state of Malysia’s judiciary and political paradigms though these CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS have not been applied.

The right to Hudud punishments is a negative freedom but still a freedom nonetheless. No group of citizens via rule of mob or supposed right of larger numbers, might in numbers has any right to enforce ANYTHING on anyone. That is application of ETHICAL principles to a very difficult issue.

The as you call it, ‘fucking’ constitution. doesn’t work and should be amended but isn’t amended because we have lgislators busy trying to steal taxpayer monies who do not understand that Constitution is a living breathing document that needs to have changes to accomodate the PEOPLE, *NOT* the PEOPLE change to suit it because numerically they are out numbered, by force of arms even!

No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it. In the context of consensual Hudud vs. an inapplicable Constitution, guess where the Spirit of the Law lies? And that my ethically unaware or lazy minded friend, is the essence of Civilisation as opposed to the attitude of Malicious Compliance or brute force and punishment based on inapplicable words on a piece of paper. Teach a child to think by giving freedom, not hit a child into not thinking or imprison. Of course sheep are easier to herd, so it is easy to see who intends his charges well and who inevitably ends up abusing them.

The principle is the issue of victimlessness of an action and the right to self determinism. If there are spaces that can be made for whatever they wish experience, just you remember that the world and lands on the world belong to EVERYONE not those most numerous, with the most powerful weapons or the loudest voices or the ability to impose fines and jail terms by force of arms. The ethics of civilisation, be aware and apply!

This civilisation, the display of the tolerance of man, for the relatively minor weirdness that constitutes a mere fraction of the LIMITLESS POSSIBILITIES of what we perceive as reality.

Remember Stephen Hawking’s comments on Cthulu? Start thinking out of that box and stop putting people into it because you are too weak minded or LAZY minded. So many narrow minded and authoritarian people around? Making excuses for weak mindedness. Stop being lazy and TEACH responsibility not introduce/impose the Crutches of Authoritarianism on your fellow sentients. In a short while we could very well be having bio-engineered lifeforms ‘Spore’ style and brain transplants to boot alongside all manner of cybernetics. Does this mean a group who can’t wrap their head around these concepts has a right to demand others not be allowed to partake (after extensive ETHICAL testing to ensure no unwanted fallout occurs by any chance of course)?

“The tyranny of the many would be when one body takes over the rights of others, and then exercises its power to change the laws in its favor.” – Voltaire

So don’t tell me Hudud is so shocking. Its really very dull and not something I would chose, *BUT* the principal of the matter is that it’s that person’s choice and to respect God given free will and self determinism, we must at least make space for them to choose their own path. The world belongs to EVERYONE not the ‘majority’ alone. Spirit of Law. No more of this crudity, even against crudity.

For example, look at Section 377B, doesn’t exist in India or England. So why is it maintained here? To be used as a weapon. Every Malaysian who has had oral sex is guilty 377B and should be imprisoned 20 years and whipped. Were government to apply such laws instead of amending them, then we’d all be in prison.

So do you think the Constitution can be applied to Hudud even?

“If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for

people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all.”

– Noam Chomsky

As Anwar was a victim of entrapment, so this trial doesn’t count. When a kangaroo court is in session, another political enemy is made to bite the dust. Again spirit of the law trampled by the judiciary’s negligence to amend, by unconstitutional powers to appoint judges, by abusing where people find most pleasure or necessity (like extreme taxes on vehicles) or inflicting Concessionaire Highways and Vehicular-APs on citizens.

Also, understand what ‘cultural relativism’ and ‘free will’ mean you dimknob! So who’s the dumbshit now? Let the readers decide! Pathos without Logos! And don’t mention the Fed or the Constitution, that would be Ethos without Logos! No logic, means no case.

Ali Davidson
18 December 2010 – 9:41 am

AgreetoDisagree,

You can’t apply Hudud la you dumbshit. It is the Federal Parliament that sanctions the level of punishments for the Syariah courts.

Read your fucking constitution you nimrod!

AgreeToDisagree
18 December 2010 – 2:44 am

@Ali Davidson

“Syariah law in Malaysia is archaic and primitive.”

True. But people who WANT HUDUD even, have a right to live by Hudud. Though imposing any law without consent is also wrong. Hudud is livable if you are very disciplined, but most Muslims can’t really do it. That is PAS’s weak point. If PAS makes Hudud applicable on a signatory basis, with all Muslims still under Syariah Law as well, PAS would be quite strong. You could even say that any PAS Malay is an honest and non-corrupt Malay who is a proper follower of Islam. They need to be apply Hudud in this manner or they will chase Malay voters away.

With Tok Guru’s condemnation of Bumiputraism as APARTHEID and ex-Perlis Mufti Dr Mohd Asri Zainal stating Bumiputra is akin to Zionism amonst others, PAS is quite popular in contemporary Malaysia among the minorities.

On the ethical scorecard, PMBK CEO Datuk Abdul Ariffahmi Abdul Rahman being asked to quit by Tok Guru to prevent conflict of interest sets a precedent probably in the whole of ASEAN, though here and there instances of extreme wealth have surfaced, though not as shocking as in BN.

Casual Analysis of Malaysian parties (International links wise) :

1) PAS is the safest where national security is concerned, other than ties with a mostly neutral German delegation, they look absolutely dedicated to Malaysian sovereignty.

2) DAP, as oligarchic and nepotistic as PAP is colluding with PAP on illegal technological fronts at USA’s behest, USA itself is beholden to the Zionist lobby.

3) PKR has Wolfowitz and others linked to Zionism as well though recent distancing of US from PKR’s ANwar make PKR slightly better for nationl sovereignty though NEPOTISM and OLIGARCHY in PKR however are so serious that MCLM and KITA have been set up to counter that in PKR.

4) The double faced Zionist-APCO link, damns Barisan no end.

Don’t laugh at Syariah or even Hudud Ali Davidson, it’s their choice if they really want it and have not been coerced. Self Determinism also applies in liefstyles like Hudud or those luddite minded Amish Mennonite communities in the USA. It’s a free world, don’t disparage that and even help others fight for their right to SELF DETERMINISM.

Ali Davidson
17 December 2010 – 10:44 pm

Just do away with Syariah law in Malaysia and you’ll have peace and harmony!

Syariah law in Malaysia is archaic and primitive.

I laugh each time I hear about Syariah law in Malaysia.

AgreeToDisagree
16 December 2010 – 3:15 am

That line is abit over the top and loses by itself, but you get the picture lol. But the arguement is won elsewhere in the repartee am very sure.

Awang Berbahaya
16 December 2010 – 1:44 am

You guys are a bunch of loonies.

REPENT from doing SATAN’s work? ROTFL

Saya tiba2 terbayang adegan seorang penceramah ajaran sesat dalam filem yang kononnya ada kuasa ajaib untuk memulihkan penyakit hanya dengan memegang dada pesakit.

@Agreetodisagree- I think you have lost your argument.

AgreeToDisagree
16 December 2010 – 12:12 am

England is the flunky for going on a 10th Crusade against Saddam for double standards on 2nd Amendment Rights and causing near 500,000 deaths. A holocaust only upped by the Ameri-Indian Natives in USA and Canada and South Americas.

I will indulge your skewed perception on free will and your attempts to turn the public against people trying to ensure open opinion and free mindedness.

What do you mean so by default what you say is not relevant and holds not water? Flunked Logic 101?

Because we advocate self determinism, and children who are psychologically mature or who will come to less harm being married than being jailbait, does not mean we are paedophiles. I personally am more inclined to Borticelli than Loli phenotype though if @pointof view is into the latter, and everyone is consensual to marriage including parents, why should there be an issue?

Marriage and childbirth dignifies the tween or teen (especially if biologocally capable) and transitions her into a woman and MOTHER, not some mentally immatured ingenue long past her biological fertility, that that too is a choice that must remain open to the fairer sex.

Did you think the stork dropped off babies at the orphanage and that only aging women are entitled to adopt and raise children, who are sometimes forcibly placed there via child alienation?

Even male-male homosexual couples are permitted to adopt and raise children, (by the initiative of a certain alter ego I would hope?) why do you seek to forbid young couples in love who chose to become life partners?

During tribal times where all was untamed wilderness, when 2 people matured, they would probably leave the tribe to set up their own family and start ‘experimenting’ much earlier as well. Was there a law then? Then the male would take out his bow and arrow and . . . HUNT animals (OMG someone call PETA! Duh.). (No I wasn’t going to get explicit.)

Then there is the ageism issue, is difference in age any indicator of maturity or a reason to place a barrier to consensual marriage?

NEUTRAL SPACES for thought and living! Autonomy!

Go hurl your stones somewhere else and put those pitchforks and torches to better use, like against an abusive government which far too many have vested interest (perhaps you are one who profits from the proliferation of ‘charities’, orphanages, child services, or child alienation lawsuits? REPENT from doing Satan’s work by speaking for his Satanic social engineering structures and leave us independent citizens alone.)

All religious institutions running as businesses as well had better empty those coffers full of sequesterd funds that never benefit society, PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING, EVEN DYING OUT THERE.

It is YOU who is advised to seek medical help for your lack of logic and attempt at tarring anyone by calling them paedophiles. God knows they’ve made a sacred taboo of freedom to marry alongside religion without more people egging the ‘self serving charitable’ on.

Oneofthesedays
15 December 2010 – 10:28 pm

@pointofview @AgreeToDisagree

Looks like you flunked England too….

You are a couple of pedophile supporters so by default what you say is not relevant and holds no water.

My advice to you is to seek medical help for your sickness.

siew eng
15 December 2010 – 7:49 am

“She probably dont know or understand what she is getting herself into but I think she has made the right choice for her.”

This reminds me of Noor Kumalarasi who said she’d follow even the hadiths that are daif.

How well the teacher taught the student!

pointofview
14 December 2010 – 8:46 am

Oneofthesedays

You must be a joke… math? go figure the world… I didnt flunked my maths or language but making a simple point that if that teacher guy made his decision to marry the 14 year old girl then he should be ready to double up his duties. 14, 24 or 30 the house chores or what you call as maid duties should be shared to build a good marriage. Obviously, you dont have the capacity to understand that.

FarFarAway
14 December 2010 – 1:12 am

Generally, the law of the land (which would have been gazetted normally after discussion, debate and consultations) should be observed.

However, in Msia, there appears to be two sets of law and these need to be streamlined – after a fair discussion/debate/consultations, of course – where a legal minimum age for marriage should be set clearly.

AgreeToDisagree
14 December 2010 – 12:11 am

@Oneofthesedays

“If you can’t tell the diff between 14 and 24 you must have flunked math :)”

You don’t need to know math for wifely duties, to give birth or nurse children. The poorer husband though would require doubling up for cook’s or even maid’s duties though, but the same do not need math either. In fact math is not even needed for housebuilding (the traditional way) or farming crops or mining. Do we need math or even language for that matter? A club and a cave is more important than math.

Oneofthesedays
13 December 2010 – 9:12 pm

pointofview

if you can’t tell the diff between 14 and 24…you must have flunked math 🙂

pointofview
13 December 2010 – 11:43 am

By the way, the age gap between my husband and I is 9 years. We have a beautiful daughther. And I must say that, I’m a happily married woman and I’m enjoying every bits of my life to the fullest with my husband who once was my teacher.

pointofview
13 December 2010 – 11:32 am

I dont understand why this issue of a teacher marrying a student is so provoking to the society. I’m married to my teacher. The difference is that we waited until I finished my studies and got married at the age of 24. See, this girl has made her choice by marrying the teacher at a very young age. We are nobody to judge her or the teacher. She probably dont know or understand what she is getting herself into but I think she has made the right choice for her. I’m not condoning their actions but sometimes when you are ready to get married…just go ahead and get married. If not, the right person to come by will take sometime…or maybe not at all.

As for the parents, I dont think they want to escape from their parental resposibility. They just dont want to see their daugther being unmarried, have sex and get pregnant. So, by marrying her to that guy will ease their worries. Sometimes, when you have daughthers, the right measure should be taken to prevent wrong doings. Just think of it that we are reversing the time to early 40’s, 50’s or 60’s….where women get married at a very young age and build their happy families.

p/s: this is for the writer:

before you loyarburok about others, please do some research and gather your facts and point of views. Just dont hantam people. Anyway, you are single. What do you know about getting married or being married?

Charlie
13 December 2010 – 4:02 am

Speaking as someone who does not live in Malaysia and who has never lived in a majority Muslim community, and therefore probably more removed from the emotions behind the debate, I wasn’t surprised to hear that children of 14 are getting married in Muslim countries (after all, the prophet Mohammed pbuh himself married multiple wives (11) one of whom was betrothed to him at the age of 6 and the marriage was consummated at 10 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad’s_wive…. In this context, I was relieved that there was not too much of an age gap between the newly married couple (only 8 years) which is a pleasant contrast to the extremes we see in truly undeveloped places like Afghanistan: See this picture of a 40 year old man married to an 11 year old girl that won Unicef Photo of the year http://www.metro.co.uk/news/80298-under-age-marri….

That said, I (and I expect many others in the West) do perceive marriage at such a young age to be a practice of countries less progressive than Malaysia, and I was surprised that there is this “loophole” in Malaysian law that allows the marriageable age of 16 to be broken if sanctioned by a Shariah court. I think it is scary and undesirable that such a court could sanction marriage to girls much younger than 14 if it wanted to. I think there should be a lower age limit on this power. What that age limit should be should be a topic of debate for the Muslim community in Malaysia.

Looking at marriageable ages around the world, the trend is to raise them not to lower them. The trend is also to stop the practice of children getting married. In 2008 Egypt raised the marriageable age from 16 to 18 and also outlawed female circumcision (a barbaric practice which I believe many of my Muslim brothers and sisters in certain countries have tolerated for too long). Even Saudi Arabia and Yemen (among the most prolific for child marriages) are also looking to introduce a minimum marriageable age. Such action is largely in response to outcries at what their indigenous populations saw as morally reprehensible behaviour in a marriage context (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nujood_Ali).

So, I think that is good news for the world. I am pleased that Malaysia is not having more extreme stories of forced marriages with larger age gaps coming out and I am also pleased that there is a willingness to debate these issues openly. No country is perfect, but through debate, willingness to change and pursuit of principles of fairness we stand a good chance of making our countries better and more harmonious places to live.

AgreeToDisagree
12 December 2010 – 3:14 am

What have you seen at 14? Why can’t you wait?

Well after picking the husband of choice or being picked by a successful suitor, or having an meticulously and astrologically soundly calculated arranged marriage (with someone not too noxious to oneself), the now matured woman (maybe in her late 30s onwards), may still choose to ‘see the world’ after raising her children to adulthood.

Who says a lfestyle has to be linear or binary? Try thinking out of the box, and while saying it is justified by Islam is the lazy way out, I think the Prophet would concur with my entirely secular and logic based views on the matter.

It IS okay for minors to get married. But only after many considerations are to be factored in. Best of luck, and don’t wait too long for ‘true love’, by biological factors, some things are best enjoyed and more viable while young!

Noreen
12 December 2010 – 1:02 am

Hi All,

Thank you all for your comments again. I am happy that my article has generated views both from those who are okay with underage marriages and those who are against it. And so, thank you for your concerns Crystal. I am touched.:-)

Who would have thought that there are people who are okay with underage marriages? Seriously. Again, seriously?!!

I feel compelled to comment again because I do not appreciate being called as someone who back-out from a war and having accused as someone with a perverted, corrupted mind who failed to understand the attributes and teachings of Prophet Muhammad.

The reference to stoneage is a metaphor to a time different from ours and to minds that somehow have not caught up with the 21st century. It wasn’t supposed to be read literally as a prehistoric period where man made tools from stones.

True, I agree that Prophet Muhammad’s marriage to Aishah is an exceptional case but is the teacher like Prophet Muhammad and is the kid like Aishah? Abu Bakar As-Siddiq blessed the marriage between Aishah and Prophet Muhammad because of:

(a) to reinforce friendly relations between him and the Prophet;

(b) to educate and train Aisha so she may served the purposes of Islam; and

(c) to teach her to utilise her capabilities for the sake of Islam.

If (note-IF) the parents’ intentions for approving the marriage were:

(a) to escape from their responsibility as parents; and

(b) to legalise sex between a minor and an adult.

Then, I feel sorry for the girl.Marriage is no child’s play and this was why the last paragraph of my article above was styled in the manner of the last dialogue in the movie Trainspotting. It is to evoke images of choices,empowerment, independence and there is more to life than getting married. See and experience the world first, then decide. What have you seen at 14? Why can’t you wait? True love waits.

To say it is okay for minors to get married because the Prophet did it to me is the same as saying it is okay for parents to kill their kid as a sacrifice to Allah. The same way as Ibrahim almost killed Ismail before being rewarded for his loyalty and faith with a big sheep sent down from the heaven to be slaughtered instead of Ismail. Sacrifice in this modern age has taken into a more in depth meaning if not metaphoric and is more than slaughtering the sacrificial sheep.

Farha’s suggestions to me is a happy compromise and while I respect her views, I still stand with what I have written. To me there is no compromise in underage marriages. It should be banned altogether.

As for the teacher and his newly married child-bride, good luck.I wish you all the best and may you have a blissful marriage.

Have a good weekend everyone.

zenonidenoni
11 December 2010 – 7:33 am

The Prophet Muhammad SAW is a mercy sent by Allah to mankind. His acts and his words were never driven by lust, his wisdom came from Allah through the the teaching of the Angel Jibrail. It is in your perverted mind that think their marriage was by lust, then why not the prophet married 10 young girls, why did he married only one while he can have them all, nobody was going to question the prophet back then. But he did marry only one girl and not making her as his daughter because a stepdaughter in Islam is not allowed to access much of his private life, which in fact, very important to us Muslims to learn about his way of life. The hardness of his life not only felt by him, but also his daughter Fatimah and all of his nine wives. He acted not upon his desire nor lust, but his actions were always guided by Allah. And people would slander him if he took Aisyah r.a. as a stepdaughter. You guys had not read nor study the life of the prophet or other prophets, so you will not have any idea other than what in store of your perverted, corrupted mind.

zenonidenoni
11 December 2010 – 7:17 am

I’m out of this argument. No point arguing anymore. I had made my stand, deliver my message that we should not intervene with the marriage, for fear it may cause them to separate. We should be supportive, not destructive, they are already married with the consent of their parents.

Who are we to decide that playing and going on school trips are good for her. We should grab whatever opportunity to do good deeds and shall not delay it for tomorrow for fear that the chance might go off. We don’t even know what is going to happen the next second, we can only assume. So, please, janganlah bersangka buruk dengan orang lain. Goodbye.

Crystal
11 December 2010 – 5:41 am

Dear Noreen,

Do not be disheartened by some of the comments by your readers. The way most Malaysians reacted to this news, we all know how the majority feels about this. And I very much agree with U-En Eng. This is not about the girl’s rights to get married. The questions really is about whether she is mature enough. I know some 14-year olds who are very mature, but why can’t it wait? If you are so confident about your love, why not wait?

And so many of you are not parents. Neither am I. But I shudder to think that there may be a teacher in my nieces schools who may be flirting and having a relationship with them! Parents are supposed to protect and prevent their children from making mistakes. How can a 14 year old really know what marriage really is and what she has committed herself into? What is the point of “building a family life early so by the age of 40, their children can help and support and build even bigger family.” Why not 20+??

And so many talk about the ‘legal’ aspect of marriage. Sex with a minor is still SEX WITH A MINOR, married or otherwise! MARRIAGE DOES NOT MAKE A KID OLDER! Marriage is not just a “holy union of two souls with god as witness”. It’s a lot of work, work that 14 year olds may not be capable of. Work that is not necessary for a 14 year old. She should be playing and going on school trips and having fun with her friends. How can you say she chose it when she may not even know what the hell she is talking about?

U-En Ng
11 December 2010 – 4:46 am

Do we trust a 14-year-old (or any girl on the basis of her first period, regardless of age) to drive a car? Buy a house? Work in a factory? Get a credit card?

If there is an element of prejudgement in preventing underaged marriage (in that it deprives an individual, regardless of her age, of choice), aren’t we also bound at least to consider that an individual’s capacity for deciding *ought* to be tested by *sufficient maturity*?

farha
10 December 2010 – 11:18 pm

There are pros and cons to marrying at such a young age. In those days (yes, i HAVE to make that comparison), girls marry young but usually because their families have arranged for it…rarely does the girl marry out of their own volition.

Today, if the 14-year-old girl (who recenly is in the press) marry because she want to, to the guy who is right (at that time), feels she’s capable, why not? She have the right to get married…this i don’t deny. However, she also have the right to an education that supports teenage mums.

I think, then, there has to be some kind of guidelines to i)ensure they remain educated; or in worse case scenario, ii)be able to re-join school if she don’t want to attend school for the time being (for whatever reason)

(e.g – how many times can these young mums defer PMR/SPM if they take maternity leave? is there ‘compassionate leave’ for them if they need to attend to sick babies?)

kaza
10 December 2010 – 10:35 pm

Intresting article, Noreen. Funny comments from ‘some’ readers thou…

zenonidenoni
10 December 2010 – 8:34 pm

Oneofthesedays

quote – when are you marrying your 14 year-old?pedophile defender = pedophile

so nothing you have said has any credibility.

the pervert teacher should be arrested for rape and not be allowed near children unsupervised ever again.-end quote-

wah,so nice of you to accuse someone who you don’t even know. Do you understand that pedophile is a person who had sex (unmarried of course) with a young person. Between a legal husband and wife, you have no jurisdiction for that. And I always think it is nothing wrong to marry early, they are not rob from their childhood, they are building their family life early so by the age of 40, their children can help and support and build even bigger family.

By the way, my gf is a nice beautiful and charming 24-year old lady whom I’m going to marry her if Allah permit when I have enough money.

p/s: A writer should write responsibly.

AgreeToDisagree
10 December 2010 – 6:04 pm

hi @L,

1) ” and as Marina Mahathir had said in her column in The Star, marrying a teenager just for the sake of preventing “social ills” such as pre-marital sex can actually lead to bigger social ills like abuse, lack of education for the female bride therefore lack of her ability to fend for herself and thus have to be entirely dependent on her husband to decide her life for her as per his will…etc.

Not in every case. And with a strong and watchful (DO NOT BE ‘offensively watchful’ – try malicious compliance, for respect for her husband is critical to their marital bliss – warning all so-called feminists to check those attitudes in advance, especially older jealous jilted/unmarried ones) community setting I mention, ‘fending’ will be very unlikely.

As for ‘conveniently saintly’ Marin ‘Evil’ Mahathiru who looks potentially to angle herself via MCLM as Malaysia’s First Female PM, and the spectre of her becoming Malaysia’s First Female PM in true DYNASTY/OLIGARCHY form after her father dr.Evil, is just too horrible to mention. dr.Evil would never face a trial, and the ‘pity my father’ and ‘since I am also PM’ ploy will be all too obvious by then. She would likely to protect her father, whitewash Ops Lallang, or the Vehicular AP system or the APARTHEID or billions worth of ILLEGAL shipping bailouts, closed tenders, free contracts, unpaid and ignored bills and illegal movements of funds for Marina’s brothers Mirzan and Mokhzani.

By vested interests Mirzan is a director of at least eight companies listed on the Kuala Lumpur Stock Exchange. His private company, Peringkat Prestasi, a large stake in Lion Corp. His Konsortium Perkapalan Bhd, a listed haulage and logistics company, controls almost half of Malaysia’s road freight market. Imagine the number of freely given contracts this guy got!

Mokhazani, ex-UMNO Treasurer, is worth well over a billion, through his vehicle Kenchana Petroleum and much of the undistributed NEP wealth through a network of subsidiaries and proxies. Imagine the number of close tenders this guy got!

Careful of MCLM simply by the association of committee post bearer Marina to her brothers and by extension dr.Evil Mahathir! Blood is thicker than water and in the nepotistic and oligarchic world of blood relations, ALL the Rakyat are but water, so NEVER vote for those who by association attempt to protect those who have harmed Malaysia so much over the past 22 years. I’d drop MCLM for fear that friendships between Haris/RPK and Marina would be a protective last pitch weapon coordinated by the evil Mahathir in the background somehow. To play it safe, I’d advise all voters or current MCLM supporters to look for other options than MCLM or set up as private candidates instead. A 3rd Force is indeed needed but MCLM by blood association to dr.Evil, has too many holes for any cautious voter’s liking.

Citizens, run as private candidates instead if you want a 3rd Force so badly.

2) those who advocate this practice are supporters of a repressive patriarchal system who believe a woman’s purpose in life is to be a good wife and serve the man, who then will have all the rights to determine her life for her. Women are humans too, in case you have not noticed. Women have the right to choose…yes…some may choose marriage. but if at a young age, how sure are we that that choice is a choice made by an uninfluenced mind with a clear and rational idea of what she is committing herself towards.

Not necessarily again. Do you know what joy a child-like mind who has indulged and lived out whimsical decisions can accrue in the years to come? She will always say, I always had my way. And that is part of the magic of having a young bride that you may never know because of your distrust or lack of access of the strong supportive community as I mention.

Such settings are few but should be encouraged, and by this way of upbringing, the next generation of adults would be equally joyful and privileged, to influence society to a happier and freer world. I partook of a different form, (not a child bride) and here I am sharing what I have ‘gained’, though throughout there was much anger at the freedom I always felt and still wish to share.

The gain I mention above is incalculable as opposed to the devastating social engineering occurring this day. Though with caveats as in my earlier comment. Think deeper and in the right setting and conditions, the above culture is a wonder and luxury to behold that while out of reach to most today, should really be extended to all peoples of the world in time to come.

AgreeToDisagree
10 December 2010 – 5:46 pm

hi Noreen :

You said ” My question is why not? Writers write, readers decide.”

True but entirely neglecting the finer point I will now discuss below.

But too many people don’t really know their own mind or have had time to develop the intelligence or linguistic skills to make their own opinions or even develop their personality *shock* – schooling is something I feel should begin AFTER age 35 when a stable core personality has developed.

That is also why the AGEISM issue in uniformed or enforcement recruiting – a very vicious agenda that strips a young individual of the opportunity to develop themselves. Do you think a matured soldier who has lived as a civilian would torture prisoners as in Abu Gharaib? Go to war when the reasons are wrong? Hardly, so the young and vulnerable are being targeted and as an matured person (which I assume you are, note I used the word mature, because old age does not make for maturity) it is a responsibility for the conscientious to prevent such ‘collateral damage’ (in afflicting self determinism or formation of opinion) which I see many writers in many online mags or blogs neglecting to address entirely.

So when you write, you could end up inadvertently subsuming any opinions a reader might have had or that were in formation! Especially the less intelligent ones or those from lower socio-political classes who have been inculpated with ‘approval seeking’ natures.

Perhaps forums should have a rating system or warning (by the Information Ministry – which obviously is a propaganda machine with no sense of right or wrong, save for the political forces currently at sway) on the above matters to better prepare the readers for strong opinions that effectively end up as an imposition of ‘social engeineering’ without ‘informed consent’.

For added responsibility and respect for the free will of others to avoid this problem, such safeguards and considerations must always be met and never trivilised or neglected unless we have an ‘agenda’.

Now I do not know you well enough to judge that you have been tainted by communication with such people but if you are, please drop those guys, even if they pay you a salary to spin, and begin writing CONSCIENTIOUSLY and in a NEUTRAL manner.

As we communicate, more problems are identified and better ways of communication and social development are discovered. I think there are many who would find this exchange on the issue itself and the ‘why not’ you have brought up useful. Also very appreciative on the replies! Some article writers only want to pontificate and never engage or discuss as if theirs was the gospel tructh, others twist your comments via selective moderation, I really appreciate this and our so-called ‘aduns’ should learn to communicate with the Rakyat who voted them in after all.

Nice chatting!

KoE
10 December 2010 – 4:58 pm

I’m surprise that the writer failed to understand that the teachings and the attributes of Prophet Muhammad PBUH are universal and stand correct across the time

Oneofthesedays
10 December 2010 – 4:53 pm

@zenonidenoni

when are you marrying your 14 year-old?

pedophile defender = pedophile

so nothing you have said has any credibility.

the pervert teacher should be arrested for rape and not be allowed near children unsupervised ever again.

L
10 December 2010 – 1:48 pm

i enjoy reading your article. it is refreshing to see how some people in the community have a strong opinion against such a practice.

just because marriage has legalized sex with a minor, it doesn’t mean that it is not paedophilia. that is an extreme view, i am aware of that. but such a view cannot be dismissed altogether.

and as Marina Mahathir had said in her column in The Star, marrying a teenager just for the sake of preventing “social ills” such as pre-marital sex can actually lead to bigger social ills like abuse, lack of education for the female bride therefore lack of her ability to fend for herself and thus have to be entirely dependent on her husband to decide her life for her as per his will…etc.

those who advocate this practice are supporters of a repressive patriarchal system who believe a woman’s purpose in life is to be a good wife and serve the man, who then will have all the rights to determine her life for her. Women are humans too, in case you have not noticed. Women have the right to choose…yes…some may choose marriage. but if at a young age, how sure are we that that choice is a choice made by an uninfluenced mind with a clear and rational idea of what she is committing herself towards. some laws need to be enacted to protect people from their closest people, their love interests, families and even from themselves, in order to adequately protect their rights as a human, deserving of every freedom a human is entitled to.

zenonidenoni
10 December 2010 – 9:54 am

You can’t just declare a war and then back off..

But hey, no need to raise the alarm, I come in peace. And I did not say you insult the Prophet SAW. Only that I read that you talked about stone age in one paragraph, and the next paragraph you continue with a doubt about the Prophet decision if he was here. There is a link of ideas going on.. which I understood you wanted to say that the Prophet lived in the stone age…something like that.

And hey again, I think we should say to the girl to learn to be a good wife, and we should say to the husband, be gentle to your wife and we should say to their families we support you although we differ in our actions and decisions because we know this is not wrong and it has nothing to do with public opinion because this is their private life. Or just say something good and not being “buruk sangka” to other people.

Noreen
10 December 2010 – 7:38 am

Hi All,

Thank you for all your comments. It feels great that this article has evoked many thoughts and opinions. You have made me more inspired because the worst thing about writing is not having any readers at all.

Anyway: –

Dear Zedoninonini,

I am sorry to disappoint you but I am not taking up your challenge. Firstly because I am fully aware of my credibility and credentials when I wrote this. I do not have to prove this to anyone, certainly not to you. Secondly, I do not how you read the article, I did not insult Prophet Mohammad. Thank you for your comments.

Dear Agree to Disagree,

I see your points and if I had not formed any opinion on the issue of underage marriages,I might actually agree with all that you have just said. One point though, when you said “writers should not make opinions on any lifestyle as if it were the only way to live”. My question is why not? Writers write, readers decide.

zenonidenoni
10 December 2010 – 5:45 am

Salam, I am here to defend the Prophet Muhammad SAW although he does not need anyone to defend himself, but I’m doing it because I love him. Therefore O Writer of the Post, I have seven questions to challenge your credibility to have your opinion made public and yet accepted upon this gray issue. What you had wrote will surely applauded by disbelievers who always looking not by the wisdom of the Deen of Haq. Herewith are my questions:

1. Regardless of your marital status, what will you consider a marriage is, a gift from Allah, natural selection or a curse?

2. Have you studied intensively the story of the Prophet Muhammad SAW that you come to a conclusion that he will not get married to Aisyah r.a. if they live in this modern age?

3. You said, “I have forgotten that times may have changed but some minds are still trapped in the Stone Age.” Well, do you believe that there was a period in time called the Stone Age? What do you think when I say that there were the Age of the Prophets and the Age of the Kings and the bones and potteries that were found in the caves that are claimed to be from the Stone Age were just from people who somehow got disconnected from the ancient civilizations and beside that, there will always be foolish people all around these ages to believe that there was a Stone Age?

4. Do you know the teacher, the girl and their parents that you can just ignorantly depict them as the third world people? By the way, what world are you in? The dark matter world?

5. Can I blame you and other people that are with the same tune as your opinion in this matter if the marriage mentioned above fail? Why? Maybe because you are not being supportive to them and that make them in a state of under public pressure and scrutiny.

6. Don’t you agree that by marrying early enable the girl to learn and master the art of being a good and pious wife earlier than you do?

7. Why do you think the Prophet married Aisyah r.a. at her tender age?

P/s: Somebody posted this thread on a forum I used to follow (Darksiderg.com, under the column Banana Republic)

QUOTE

i just dont think its right to follow the preachings of someone who has sex with nine year old girls or takes his sons wife for his self because god told him to after he seen her naked.

END QUOTE

Here lies my answer to such accusation.
http://tinyslave.blogspot.com/2007/11/insulted.ht…

AgreeToDisagree
10 December 2010 – 12:23 am

You can’t have everything, so either choose :

(1) the marriage route which is a luxury in this day and age or

(2) the education and work route which most middle class types are forced to because they have no choice.

But nobody should have any lifestyle forced upon them or promoted as the only lifestyle as well. If future hubby is too poor to hire a maid (no more cleaning), a cook (no preperation of breakfast or meals) or a child minder (no more looking after of kids) or even a wet nurse (no more feeding, though most mothers probably would), then look at your family stature and decide if he is suitable for you. The above ‘chores’ should not be presented as a set of DEMANDS of marriage but are as optional as the young brides’ preference. Some might ENJOY the tasks and even refuse to let the hired help do the work. It’s not unknown and the sheer domesticity of ‘chores’ is the basis of happy marriages, depending on the personality of those being considered!

Affairs of the heart can always be fulfilled at any age, once biologically capable and with INFORMED CONSENT and knowledge of parents and community. Attachment to a husband is something that varies greatly between women, so early marriage is just another option and adds diversity to viable lifestyles that deserves the support of society as well.

Meanwhile the government could have a preparatory syllabus drawn up for young brides, and make sure the local Wanita branch of whatever party locally, is always watching over and constantly in communication with any young wives to make sure no abuses occur. This should make sure that all husbands (stop with the AGEISM which is no better than RACISM, old age is the breakdown of a body nothing else) treats young wives well and instills a sense of responsibility as well.

Writers should not make opinions on any lifestyle as if it were the only way to live. In truth, some girls would be very happy and fulfilled as a mother early in life, while others would not. So a study of the personality of the would-be bride should be done by parents on both sides and NEUTRAL matured people/professionals who do not advocate either life style as gospel truth the way this writer does.

Light demogoguery by Ms Ariff? She has chosen a path that she prefers or was swept into. The least the writer can do is to let others choose their own way of living without any pushing in any direction. That is the nature of free will and self determinism. Let all choose who to love, and when to marry, preferably after the above social checks and balances and opinion feedbacks have been made.

Steven
10 December 2010 – 12:16 am

Would statutory rape for minor below 16 years apply if the husband has sex with his so call wife.

Serious Shepherd
10 December 2010 – 12:09 am

Set of law A says:

-Killing foetuses is legal

-Adultery is legal if you and your partner are above 18 years old

-If one of the partners is under 18 then it is a statutory rape, even it is done through marriage

-If both are under 18 and commit adultery, then has to come out with something like Romeo and Juliet laws (let’s say both are 16)

Set of law B says:

-Killing foetuses is illegal

-Thou shalt not commit adultery regradless of age. Harsh punishment awaits. Khalwat raiders are always on active duty.

-It is legal for a guy above 18 to marry a girl under 18

If a community already adopts set of law B then there is no need for set of law A to be imposed on them. It’s like doing moral policing to a certain community who later complains on ‘imposing their moral values on others’.

anak_perelih
9 December 2010 – 6:01 pm

many 14 years old girls nowadays are having sex with their boyfriends… not a surprise…

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

Not meaning to be critical but try this lullaby :

Hush, little baby, don’t say a word, Mama’s gonna buy you a mockingbird. (What does a baby need a mockingbird for? How about mixing with fellow babies at a crech?)
And if that mockingbird don’t sing, Mama’s gonna buy you a diamond ring. (Guess this is not ‘Career Woman’ Noreen’s bag? And yes thats really too early . . . )
etc. ends with :

And if that horse and cart fall down, Well you’ll still be the sweetest baby in town. (Horse and cart? Try singing about teats, cribs and bibs first ‘Mama’. ‘Mama’ in this song increasingly feels like a ‘Replicant’ from ‘Bladerunner’ (Ridley Scott 1982) not knowing or confounded by the difference between Tortoises and Turtles . . .

So guess what, the rest of the song here continues ‘gifting’ things that aren’t very useful to a baby or a child and ends with . . .  still be the sweetest baby in town . . . OMG the ‘Psycho’ scenario! The whole song appears to be geared towards not wanting baby to grow up or leave (horse and cart fall down . . . )?

Guess mothers even of that day were THAT clingy and selfish or didn’t know what a child liked. A mockingbird?!? Really? Does that come in a cage? How about something more cheerful and boisterous like so many songbirds in the wild which are free? And WHY must that dog be pre-named ‘Rover’? Baby or child might want to name their dog themselves, who knows baby or child prefers cats or no pets at all?

Good intentions without consultation of the receipient or consideration of the recipient’s preferences make for meaningless pontificative communication . . . Sigh, this lullaby is depressing and smothering – promise rewards for being quiet when QUESTIONING and DEBATING – AMENDING/APPENDING (to) FLAWED CONSTITUTIONS and BAD LAWS! So Noreen, how could anyone try to ‘imprint’ an article upon the readers like this much like the above lullaby does – imagine the negative subliminal effects such ‘lullabies’ might have on the subconscious! Freedom of choice is best and THAT covers APOSTASY and choice of sexuality, something Malaysia does not have. Noreen, taking away choice to get married young is no different than being forced to marry, and in this day and age, people love to stand out, no surprise that when everyone is studying those individualists who want to stand out will purposely get married and become mothers! You’re raining on an individualist Noreen, even as you yourself have become ‘Pro-Establishment’ (. . . probably, though perhaps I am too hopeful . . . ) without knowing so.

How about running for election on the below 3 items as an independent Noreen?

1) Freedom from Apartheid/Fascism (Article 1 Human Rights Charter)
2) Freedom from Religious-Persecution/Religious-Supremacy. (Article 18 Human Rights Charter)
3) Equality for all ethnicities and faiths in all aspects of policy, Law and Constitution. (Surah An Nisa 4:75)

;and lower election deposits to 150.00 instead of 15,000.00, remove ALL road tolls (Freedom of Movement), remove AP (remove crony-capitalism), lower import taxes to DUTY FREE (remove state/retailer collusion to fleech consumers), end Forced Military Conscriptions (end rent seeking),

distribute unused land to the homeless (socialism but would you rather have 1% plutocrats with an angry 99% homeless, debt ridden, becoming gangs of thieves/robbers, or NGO ralliers running around, or distribute and aloow them to slowly build their homes into castles, contentedly smoking weed or poppy sap, chewing coca they grew in their own backyard for free and eating food they grew themselves?). Malaysia is a land of plenty, we do not need taxes, illegal immigrants being given free citizenships out of sheer racism or religiosity, and fees every step of the way right down to the apartheid and extreme religion. This is just step 1.

When the above all happens, then will new things appear for humanity – at least in Malaysia. If we can’t even do the above 3 for a start much less what I just listed, at least don’t try to ‘Lowest Common Denominatorise’ or ‘Streamline into Conformity’ individuals that have the strength to go against the mainstream.

ARTICLE 2

18-Year-Old Busted for “Selling Child Porn” of Herself – Author: Artefact – Date: Jun 28, 2010 23:20 JST

An 18-year-old girl has been arrested on child pornography charges for selling nude pictures of herself online.

The girl, an 18-year-old unemployed resident of Saitama, was arrested on charges of selling child pornography after she sold nude pictures of herself to men online using an Internet bulletin board.

Reportedly, from December of 2009 to April of 2010 she took a number of pictures of herself naked with her cellphone, in one case selling 33 to a pair of patrons for ¥12,000.

She identified customer bank accounts, allowing police to identify 147 customers who paid her a total of ¥1,070,000 ($12,000). It is not clear whether police will be pursuing charges against them.

She admits the charges, saying she used the money to pay her rent and food bills as she had left home.

18-year-olds, though still technically minors under Japanese law, are perfectly legal to portray pornographically in Japan – although unconfirmed, observers think the most likely explanation for her arrest is that some of the photographs were of her when she was still 17, though naturally this hardly constitutes “child pornography” in the eyes of most.

The arrest has proven contentious amongst Japanese – some have denounced it as a typical abuse of a bad law in order to terrorise minors into chastity, whilst others express disgust at police and mass media which insist on calling an 18-year-old a “shoujo” instead of a young woman. None can identify a victim involved in the crime.

Ironically, she would not have faced any charges had she just had sex with the men for money, or sold them her pantsu, even if she was a minor at the time – Japanese police never take legal action against “child” prostitutes, except apparently when they happen to take pictures of themselves.

Even more ironically, in most parts of Japan a schoolgirl can be procured for much less than the patrons mentioned paid for a few dirty snaps…

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

Comment by Anonymous (@AgreeToDisagree being too lazy to fill inthe forms and Sankoku COmplex being too daft to include a comments system that allows posting Anonymously with personalised nicks . . . ) 09:08 01/07/2010 # ! Neutral (0)

Innocent-Guilty Questionaire Factors (Yes/No questions determine what charges can be brought on. treat each question as a Juror).

*Abstract Factors
1) Who initiated the first move (threw the first punch)? Was this ‘serial’ / ‘habitual’ in nature or due to ‘natural feelings of ‘love’?
2) Was act Consensual-Non-Coercive / Bribe-Pressure Induced (Did victim feel taken advantage of? Perpetrator’s view of advantage taking form could be created.)
3) Was the victim psychologically mature and intellectually capable of understanding relationships, has studied the subject sufficiently to make informed decisions? Psychological maturity could be tested to determine age for right to consent regardless of age.
4) Cultural norm/practice justification?

In this Sankaku example, factors 1, 2, 3 can be discounted. Factor 4 is debatable to a 50/50 degree.

*Material Factors
1) Onset of puberty another determining factor (Increases right based on uncontrollable chemical/mating instinct?)
2) Physical maturity another determining factor (Increases right based on ‘can carry to term with no significant risk to victim’ as in life threatening Caesarians being required as opposed to having capacity for natural birth, regardless of pregnancy or non-pregnancy after the act)
3) Is the victim a financial dependent? (Debatable : Financial dependent allowed/disallowed regardless of maturity AND if underage OR pre-pubescent may not be allowed to consent regardless of psychological maturity? Further – Can the law demand that Parental consent is required without trampling on self determinism and creating uproar among religious demographic? Is fiscal and statuary age based control of right of sexual association unconstitutional? (Leads to child labour laws AND psychological maturity issues / Application to pornograpy and media?)

In this Sankaku example, all 3 Factors can be discounted.

Verdict : 0.5 out of 7. Not guilty. Free her now with reparations pls., her ‘legal system unaffirmed’ human rights are being trampled on.

ARTICLE 3

NOW, even 6-year-old girls say they want to be ‘SEXY’ – Friday, 20 July 2012 18:22

Today in bleeeeeeeeuuuuuurrrrrrrrrgh, a new study in the journal Sex Roles suggests that girls as young as six years old are concerned with appearing “sexy.” As in, sexually attractive. To other people. With their bodies. In public. At the risk of getting all preachy about “the children,” I’d like to invite you all to join me in a rousing chorus of, “Holy shit!!! The chiiiiildreeeeeeen!!!”

Now, obviously “sexiness” doesn’t really mean anything to little kids, as much as they think they understand it. If my collection of wide-leg pants, head-bandannas, maroon clogs, and polyester potato sacks is any indication, I definitely didn’t get a handle on sexiness until I was like…24. At least. 25, maybe. Do I even know now? Whatever. I didn’t know what it was or how to do it, but I knew that I wanted it—because, in the grand scheme of things, the girls that had “it” were the girls that got what they wanted. Sexiness is the source of our power, society says. It’s what makes you a girl. So only, like, a baby snail in a coma would be naive enough to imagine that that attitude wouldn’t trickle down to the children. Kids are sponges. Which means that now kids are sexy sponges. Bleurgh.

Researchers presented 6- to 9-year-old girls with a series of paired paper dolls: one doll in a “sexy” outfit and the other in a trendy but full-coverage outfit.

Using a different set of dolls for each question, the researchers then asked each girl to choose the doll that: looked like herself, looked how she wanted to look, was the popular girl in school, she wanted to play with.

Across-the-board, girls chose the “sexy” doll most often. The results were significant in two categories: 68 percent of the girls said the doll looked how she wanted to look, and 72 percent said she was more popular than the non-sexy doll.

Girls who played sports chose the non-sexualized doll more often. Girls who both watched a lot of TV and had mothers with “self-objectifying tendencies” were more likely to choose the sexy doll. But on the flipside, girls who watched a lot of TV but received “maternal instruction during media viewing” (i.e. smart, attentive moms who made sure to call bullshit on bullshit) were somewhat more protected from self-sexualization. Media-consuming girls with religious mothers were similarly non-sexualized. However, perhaps most interestingly:

Girls who didn’t consume a lot of media but who had religious mothers were much more likely to say they wanted to look like the sexy doll. “This pattern of results may reflect a case of ‘forbidden fruit’ or reactance, whereby young girls who are overprotected from the perceived ills of media by highly religious parents … begin to idealize the forbidden due to their underexposure,” the authors wrote…”low media consumption is not a silver bullet” against early self-sexualization in girls.

And that gets directly to the heart of my feelings about this whole creep-show. The knee-jerk response is to blame Katy Perry, and Sydney Bristow, and Bratz dolls, and brokeback lady heroes. There’s no comic book lady-lawyer with a bionic briefcase whose superpower is competence and whose costume is a sensible pantsuit. That doesn’t exist. And that particular cultural flaw certainly doesn’t help little girls prioritize brains over butts. But it’s still just an intermediate symptom, not the cause.

Here’s the cause: Exactly one jillion years ago (historical accuracy courtesy of Lindy West, Lady Anthropologist), some genius decided that the human body was shameful. Especially the female human body. And the disgusting, shameful human body needed to be cloaked at all times, or else DOOM. Certain religious people (see above) are especially excited about this idea. Except simultaneously, some other genius decided that the female body is a precious, possessable commodity that can be sold and traded and hoarded like big floppy flesh-bucks. So that creates this crazy taboo where everyone is clamoring to see naked female bodies all the time, but they feel weird and guilty about it, which makes them mad at females who show their bodies too much, but also makes everyone worship females who show their bodies just enough (but also kind of hate them at the same time). And then women hate other women with “better” bodies, and little kids get the message that they’d better have the “right” kind of body and display it in the “right” way, or they’re screwed. It’s waaaaay more complicated than that, of course, but my point is that our entire relationship with human bodies is FUCKED.

There’s nothing objectively shameful about a body, which means there’s nothing objectively shameful about those outfits on the “sexy” paper dolls. (You never hear some badger mom complaining to Mole-ry Povich that her litter “dresses too sexy,” because that is just some weird shit that humans made up.) A “slutty” outfit is nothing but a different configuration of fabric. But because of the aforementioned taboo, and the commodification of the female body, and the way that certain religious folks combine those two things in the most fucked up and oppressive way possible, bodies mean everything. And 6-year-old girls internalize that and wind up “wanting” things that they don’t even understand: things that (supposedly) telegraph sexual desirability, things that (they think) will bolster their tiny ailing self-esteems. Things like, if this study is any indication, some shitty pleather bustier from the bargain bin at Lover’s Package.

And then we blame…pleather? Nope, sorry, this is our mess. You can froth about Barbies and shame Katy Perry all you want, religious mothers, but remember: you made Katy Perry.

-=jezebel.com

[[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

Narrow minded display. That article is only true of a a certain demographic though the article itself creates bias in the readers who are not particularly familiar with or generally applying of critical thought, the voices mentioned above may be loud or even a majority but why should anyone care? There is also the set that wants to be in diapers and be breast fed by their mothers up to their tweens or worse, until ‘Psycho’ (1960 Alfred Hitchcock) scenarios occur but even that is their right though the murder was illegal and undesirable ( unless that was somehow subconsciously desired by Norman’s old mother). Other mothers sleep around, give birth and do not care about who does the adoption. Yet others collect as many orphans as they can to appear ‘cool’ and ‘kind’ while dripping evil on all other counts. This kids and sexiness thing is probably another fringe group who have parents that allow or foster or hacve been involved (gasp!) in this. Must be aware that generations ago, showing an ankle or even the neck was ‘sexy’. So who made the writer Ayatollah? People INCLUDING children will choose their preferences and regret the same or not later. Thats what being an individual is all about not biological age, though consent and free will of the child must be considered (i.e the child may want to continue family behaviour even if negative or may opt out the key issue is if the child has be taught to decide if said child wants to or not of said child’s free will).

The writer sounds really old and narrow minded here. There will always be burkha wearers even as there will be nudists. Or psychedelic organics smokers and those who avoid the same people and substances like plague. MINORITY OF ONE is a human right. It’s just that freedom of expression now FOR CHILDREN is much stronger than ever. Humanity is evolving even as fashionably outdated type memes will most certainly endure. Why rain on some kid’s ‘sexiness parade’? When people attempt to normalise anything or when everyone is a clone THEN that is more fightening. By sheer value in diversity, anyone should feel happy this is being expressed, though there should also be a open ended manual for children to study and be tested from, and discussion on what could or could not happen rather than NON-CONSENSUAL imprinting by parents, religions or society in a manner that subsumes a child’s free will which is what the 1st World and modern society or the ‘Minority of One’ concept (which is almost never practiced in law) is all about rather than the child’s own natural inclinations which must also be differentiated from stronger minds manipulating from the background in a form of ‘psychic dictatorship or ]’psychic subversion’ much like cults of personality that can demand all followers suicide and the group actually does that.

I.e. for a further example of free will – sex predators, which again some kids could actually want to ‘tame’ (or who knows HEAL with . . . , let your imagination run wild but this response at least comes from a Borticelli bod type lover . . . ), YES the fearlessness of the young is something that could change a sex predator brought up in older, less free willed times, the interactions are boundless – (and here we have ‘@jezebel’, yeah right – whats so ‘jezebel’ about snarking at kids wanting to be sexy? There will be some happy endings, some weird situations not too healthy, some though less – happy and even plain abusive where we must really step in but hardly on the above ‘want to be sexy’ example) – but in the history of mankind, probably most instances were not reported because internet media was not present. Stop nitpicking or being a control freak unless a particularly unpleasant incident happens. A below 10 kid loses their virginity. So? In some cases the kid themself might not even care and grow up into a career woman or get married as a mother without the psychosis that plagues those who come from strict prison-like chastity belt wearing convents or where parents beat children with belts and canes, or where even a slap or vicious scoldings could turn a child into some kind of hateful boss that enjoys bullying subordinates, or that loves to sabotage society by writing bad laws or even refusing to amend bad laws!

The frequency of ‘strange’ events like ‘kids wanting to be sexy’ is not increasing, more likely, we are just aware of the events because of new media and that society has chosen to live and let live rather than scream and spaz out in terror becuse these are not the values they are used to. Much like Burkha wearers and women forbidden to drive. They have a new voice and dare to express. So shaddup @jezebel, this dangerous potentially retaliatory, demogogue rousing musing bores the hell out of everyone. Ask around I’m very sure there are some who regret what not, but also some who would do eveything all over again, the point was to live for the moment, and the physical shell of the moment is but  a reflection of commitment to reality beyond the physical, which is why some these youth appear so feckless – there is nothing left out there except values and religions that threaten to leave one’s souls even emptier, little wonder they run straight into to subculture or even BDSM lot!

So yes if somehow things work out in some strange way, we the responsible adults (who do not demogogue) MUST let them as private individuals do what they want. Some may even choose suicide victim or abuser, but the soul knows when and why, and we cannot presume to act on or manipulate on any other soul’s behalf as if we had none of our own and wanted to interfere in  any other’s spiritual evolution. This is not pleasant or safe to say, BUT – if a victim gettting raped or a rapist getting away is part of that in some twisted manner, so that some sick pedophile gets a soul of their own (a soul for a rape event is WELL WORTH, and the attacker could go on to great things if we do not destroy them and they humannise fast enough to empathise with the victim etc..) or prevents the next Anti-Pope from being born, who knows what we could be causing if we prevented or pre-empted something else. Nature’s paths are many, and the mass killer who randomly kills Columbine style, could very well be killing some person who might give birth to someone who studies well as a nice scientist who ends up developing virulent poisons for some souless ‘Weyland-Yutani’  (refer to Aliens 1989 – Ridley Scott) type GMO/Genesplicing-toting corporation, or develops mind control technology that vicious minded dictators will destroy the free will of man with, or even brings black plague to the American continent etc..  . . . in the past? WHO ARE ANY TO DARE BLOCK FATE?

Here’s one mass murder that could have averted a Red Alert ‘Yuri’ (2001 EA Games) scenario where the world ends with all Humanity wiped out by mind control. Imagine if the below Holmes character got together with Biopolis Neuroscience Singapore and developed mind control technology that was inserted into BABIES brains at nanoscale or National Service Trainees on their 18th birthdays . . . aren’t we all glad Holmes flipped out instead of becoming a ‘Kroenen Nazi’ (Hellboy I – Guillermo del Toro 2004) under the employ of Nepotistic Dictator types?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2176579/Dropout-PHD-student-massacre-12-cinema-screening.html

Perhaps an intergalactic war could be averted because a cockroach was not stepped on and some insect-like aliens were pleased into putting that planet into the lower priority conquest list (lets return after conquest of planets that stomp on bugs more than this one . . . ). How does one know? Perhaps because some pedophile killed in this life (for those who believe in rebirth) because in a past life that pedophile was killed by that same child who victimised them? Do we know how this works? Know past, present, and future? If some kid dresses sexy in some abstruse manner that keeps pedophiles distracted so that they do not become a sexually frustrated and trigger happy nuke fire control person (if I were a military chief of a country with nukes, I’d make very sure that Mr.Push-the-Red-Button is well laid and has all the poon and sex he wants ALL THE TIME), that would kill millions and irradiate the planet. This would require an adult services industry for the unmarried AND a legal system where multiple wives were legal and upfront so that both married and unmarried types will have access. The spin off benefit would be that 2nd Amendment Rights would be very safe to have as well – Mr.Redneck would be happy knowing he could kill you with a shot and thus does not feel the need to go on a killing spree, though genuine psychos could well still be present! Check the mindsets of the potential buyers, licence guns etc. but to prohibit is stupid and insulting to intelligence, which again could upset people into smuggling and using guns as often as they can in some oblique form of protest at lack of right to bear arms!

I’d say lets turn the whole world into a red light district that also has organic psychedelics bars, distribute land and wealth equally, so that everyone was relaxed and pleasantly distracted than being put into situations that cause, frustrate or necessitate them to want to bend reality even as they bend in reality’s wind. See the angriest religion? The most capitalist country? Guess how unqualified they are to be morally pure/fiscally sound but so willing to commit acts of terror/so bankrupt . . . And here we have @jezebel wanting to diss ‘kids trying to be sexy’. These PERSONS (do not labelise as kids) are doing something not so nice as viewed by most of us who do not like that sort of thing, but sure as hell if adults don’t understand (much like heteros will never understand some people are gay, or bisexual), adults better shut up and see whether the kids or insane or the pedos are taking our souls or saving the world first, before firing socialised abuse without any warning, much less killing shots (in collusion with an already insane psychiatric establishment) that destroys persons engaging in general discussions on ideas like ‘kids trying to be sexy’.

We are not party to these people, have no right to judge, but can and should study and ask why and how FIRST, yet not condemn or prevent except in cases of coercion or unwanted and abusive grooming. This really is the best way – Live and Let Live . . . because things happen for a reason and must happen. That person left unmurdered could result in the murder of millions more simply because the system took out or disabled the would be murderer first. The fact might be that a murder in a particular neighbourhood was necessary! Lots of very bad people who have not been punished in former lives, dare think to presume to let them escape when ‘Punishers Through Time’ appear on the scene? How close or well studied are any to say? There will indeed be signs and thieves of signs covering up for more on the run from justice . . . stay the judgment from a past life but punishment will still arrive.

Civilise or stop a murderer and another will arise to claim the prize, do the job . . .  Legion is many and reaches the ends of all civilisations and sentients in the Universe, Mankind cannot even manage their own planet’s ecology, preserve and maintain species diversiy or raise their lesser setient charges to a state of equality (try Cetaceans and Canines, Felines even Rodents) much less handle issues of equality and abuse in societies within Humanity on Earth . . .

‘God’ or ‘Nature’ created EVERYTHING, including the birthers, predators and cullers, quakers, Earthquakers of who and whatever. A cyle of life across time and dimensions needs predators or overpopulation will destroy or cause harm to societies of the prey. Thwart that immense will and unseen intent at severe cost to the Universe, to indulge the evil of one’s own fat or sanctimonious ego . . . This response is NOT  intended or to be twisted to be in favour of sex oriented paedophiles (FINALLY – the word paedophile is not necessarily sexual btw, just straightening out hegelian dialectic floating around the use and abuse of the word demogogue style.Declaring one’s own ‘paedophilia’ (not recommended these days until the above written sinks in) is not sexual deviancy – good understanding of vocabulary says so current trends have twisted the word out of context – LEARN about hegelian dialectic and apply against government!!!  . . . , so now think back to how people who dislike kids are really almost safer and less mentally exhaustive to be around in certain ways, yer lazy brains . . . bleeeeeeeeuuuuuurrrrrrrrrgh indeed.

QUOTE “ . . . anger a Foetal/Foetid, end the Universe . . . ” excerpt from “Events, Event Horizons and Relations (and Bendings in) To Time” (by @Post Millenial Avatar)